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please help newbie on how to examine used kayaks

dana

Paddler
Joined
Oct 30, 2011
Messages
10
In an ideal world, I could breeze into a kayak store and write a check out for the best, brand new kayak in the store.

However, my checkbook can't cash that check so I'll have to buy a used kayak. But, I have no idea on what or how to examine a used kayak. And, I understand that since these are used kayaks, there might be some problems- it'll be worn down or scratched or something might need to be replaced. But, I don't know when those issues are acceptable for that price and when you should avoid the kayak no matter how low the price may be.

I've tried looking up this information on youtube, read different articles, etc. and I still don't really know what to look for or look at. If I find any information, it tends to be some jargon that I don't really understand or something vague. At one point, it felt like I needed to know how to build a kayak in order to know what to look for. So, you guys are my last hope.

Ideally, I was looking for pictures side by side of what's okay vs. when its not okay. You're supposed to expect the bottom to be scratched from people dragging the kayak, but when does the amount of scratching become a concern? When does a scratch become deep enough where I should be concerned?

I even tried the local specialist kayak store, but they told me to go to their kayak rental site to look at their used kayaks. And, at the kayak rental site, the worker there really didn't know anything about kayaks. If he could have walked me through the condition of their used kayaks and which ones were in better shape than another, I might have just bought a used kayak from them. Some of them looked pretty beat up to me and heavily scratched. (I've read that you can get rid of some scratches so why wouldn't the store try to eliminate that scratching before they sold it?) Can I assume if that kayak store deems them acceptable to sell in that condition, then other kayaks on Craigslist in that same condition should be fine?

As a newbie, should I look at fiberglass or plastic kayak? I've heard that plastic kayaks are tougher so I figured there might be less that could wrong with a plastic kayak. But, then I read that plastics have shorter lifespan, especially if they're stored outside. (Does this mean its not an issue to store fiberglass kayaks outside?) I also read that for plastic kayaks, you should look to see if the color has faded. But, how much fading is acceptable? Even then, doesn't it depend on the original color where some colors will fade more than others even both colors were out in the sun? I've read that sunlight can make plastic kayaks brittle, but how would I test that?

What are the expected lifespan for a platic and fiberglass kayak? If I know that and know how old the kayaks already are, then I can figure out how much longer the kayaks should last. Anything else I need to look at?
 
Where are you located?
You may be able to enlist the help of a local paddler in your quest.
Have you taken instruction/classes? Often instructors can have good suggestions for 'the right boat' and leads on locally available boats.
Do you have an idea of what boat (or type of boat) you want? Boats are very different, and picking the wrong type can make learning and using more difficult.

Renting a bunch of different kayaks (while learning and taking classes) is a good idea to get an idea of what you might want. (Translation: don't get stuck with a 'barge' or somebody else's mistake.)

Even a used kayak (if it is any good) is quite a bit of money- so be patient. You can find 'almost-mint' condition kayaks for good prices if you look around and are willing to travel a bit to pick one up. (I did this twice recently.) Plenty of people buy new boats and then don't pursue the activity. If you are lucky you can find one of those boats that's been living in a garage or under a deck for a few years.

Cheers
John
 
You can find year made within the boat's ID number. That might help you some.

I would say that the most important thing for you is that you find a boat fit you very well and choose boat good for a day paddle ( which should be fine for a weekend camping if you don't choose low end of weight capacity.), and also populer model for beginers to advansed ( which makes it easyer to resell and also you will tend to learn things better.) If you get a boat too big or too much capacity, you won't be using it too often for practice.

Plastics are just fine, specially for just practicing and paddling near rocky shores. It is cheaper and some of makers plastic is very stiff closer to fiberglass. I have Valley's and P&H's plastic and I don't have any complaine about the stiffness of those. They can be heavier than fiberglass, but not too much. Some of the fiberglass boat is really really light and still tough, but really really pricy, so If you are not up for emptying your wallet, the weight difference dose not make a big deal.
Look at the hard wears and code, you might need to replace them if they are too rusty or shredded. Make sure you can unscrew the foot brace hardwear. I had to grind the screw down to the hull to take them a part to clean the mechanism, the foot peg was stuck needing good cleaning. Screw and railing were stuck togerther because of metal to metal contact in salt water.

Good luck!
 
dana said:
I've tried looking up this information on youtube, read different articles, etc. and I still don't really know what to look for or look at. If I find any information, it tends to be some jargon that I don't really understand or something vague. At one point, it felt like I needed to know how to build a kayak in order to know what to look for. So, you guys are my last hope.

Any specific "jargon" examples that we could help you decipher?

dana said:
Ideally, I was looking for pictures side by side of what's okay vs. when its not okay. You're supposed to expect the bottom to be scratched from people dragging the kayak, but when does the amount of scratching become a concern? When does a scratch become deep enough where I should be concerned?

Scratches on the bottom of a composte ('glass) boat are to be expected. Shallow/surface scratches are cosmetic "battle-scars", and are usually not an issue. Deep scratches should be fixed, especially if the glass fibres are visible. This should be reflected in the price, and boats in this condition should probably be avoided unless you are willing to fork out more money for repairs. Chipped gelcoat (the coloured surface that protects the fibre cloth) should also be fixed/avoided. Cracks could present a bigger problem in the hull, but "spider cracks" (very fine cracks in the gelcoat caused by flexing) on the deck of the boat are usually not too big of a concern, unless it seems like the deck is really flexible.

Scratches on poly (plastic) boats are common and again usually cosmetic. Just make sure any deep ones haven't become splits, or look like they could. Poly boats are harder to fix when it comes to scratches, but usually not worth worrying about (as long as they are not structural).

dana said:
I even tried the local specialist kayak store, but they told me to go to their kayak rental site to look at their used kayaks. And, at the kayak rental site, the worker there really didn't know anything about kayaks. If he could have walked me through the condition of their used kayaks and which ones were in better shape than another, I might have just bought a used kayak from them. Some of them looked pretty beat up to me and heavily scratched. (I've read that you can get rid of some scratches so why wouldn't the store try to eliminate that scratching before they sold it?) Can I assume if that kayak store deems them acceptable to sell in that condition, then other kayaks on Craigslist in that same condition should be fine?

Rental staff can sometimes be "hit-or-miss" when it comes to being knowledgable. By nature of the position, many are seasonal staff (i.e. students) with an interest in paddling, but often aren't as well-versed as a good salesperson in the store. Yes, there are some GREAT knowledgable staff on the rental docks, but sometimes this is the exception and not the rule; it at least seems to be what you encountered. I wouldn't give up on the store in question; maybe go back and ask a salesperson to accompany you down to the dock when you've narrowed down your choice. Call ahead to ensure this is possible, as some may only have one person watching the store that can't get away. Or maybe talk to them to see when one of the more knowledgable rental staff members are on site.

Purchasing an ex-rental can be a good way to get into your first boat, but these are often "well-used". They've likely been in the fleet long enough to be paid for three times over (or more), so the companies aren't too inclined to put much into them to get their money's worth (an assumption on my part). If they can get $900-$1500 for a boat as-is, or put a few hundred bucks' worth of labour into it to get only a little more, it just doesn't make sense, but this can often mean a good deal for you. If you do buy an ex-rental, I'd say paddle it for a year and then sell it (IMHO).

dana said:
As a newbie, should I look at fiberglass or plastic kayak?

Personal preference. Worry more about finding a boat you fit well in and are comfortable paddling.

dana said:
I've heard that plastic kayaks are tougher so I figured there might be less that could wrong with a plastic kayak. But, then I read that plastics have shorter lifespan, especially if they're stored outside. (Does this mean its not an issue to store fiberglass kayaks outside?)

I also read that for plastic kayaks, you should look to see if the color has faded. But, how much fading is acceptable? Even then, doesn't it depend on the original color where some colors will fade more than others even both colors were out in the sun? I've read that sunlight can make plastic kayaks brittle, but how would I test that?

Any boat stored outside is subject to UV fading. I think the reason composite boats often look better is that the owners take better care of them due to their higher initial cost; they use protectant on the deck and either store them inside or under cover. The pigments in poly boats do fade easier than gelcoat, and they can warp and "oil can" if left in the sun too long and stored on hard supports. Look for waves and/or distortions in the hull.

dana said:
What are the expected lifespan for a platic and fiberglass kayak? If I know that and know how old the kayaks already are, then I can figure out how much longer the kayaks should last.

Composite boats, when well-maintained, can last for a long time. I believe there are some members on this board who have been paddling the same boat for 15-20 years. Plastic boats, maybe 10 years is a reasonable expected life-span.

dana said:
Anything else I need to look at?

Hatches; on older boats they can become brittle and not seal properly. The rubber type ones can be expensive ($40-75 each) to replace, and most boats have 3. The ones with neoprene hatch covers are cheaper to replace, but check to make sure the straps on the hard shell cinch up nice and tight (and stay tight) and that the clips look to have some life in them, or be ready to replace.

Bulkheads can leak, so look for signs of previous repairs (sealant/goop around the edges).

As sushiy mentioned, check the metal hardware to ensure nothing has seized up, or is missing. Check to make sure the rudder (if equipped) mechanism works smoothly, and doesn't have too much play in the operation. If it has a skeg, make sure it slides up and down easily. Make sure the footpegs can still be adjusted easily. Anything can be replaced, or even fixed with a little elbow grease and a good cleaning; just factor these into what you are willing to do vs. the asking price.

Buying a boat is exciting stuff! If you haven't decided which boat to buy (or at least narrowed it down), I'd highly recommend spending a season or two (or more) renting; participate in demo days to try out as many different models are you can until you find one that seems to work, then rent it for a longer session. Some shops will deduct the rental fee from the purchase price.

If you haven't already done so, take some lessons; the boats I looked at when I first started would not suit me now, so try before you buy! If you get stuck with a boat that is too "beginner", it will limit your enjoyment down the road and you'll be trying to sell it and looking to upgrade. On the other hand, if you buy a boat that is too "advanced" for you, it may feel too tippy and you could get discouraged (with some practice, that same "tippy" boat might end up being perfect).

Kayaks are a big investment (new or used), so take your time to find the right one!
 
sushiy said:
You can find year made within the boat's ID number. That might help you some.

Does every boat have an ID on them? I emailed a person on Craigslist about the ID but he never gave me that information. Or, am I to assume from his non-response, that its really, really old.

Let's say I've driven down on a weekend to see a kayak in person and find the ID number. Can I find out the age just from the ID number without calling the manufacturer, who will be closed during the weekend.

Look at the hard wears and code, you might need to replace them if they are too rusty or shredded.

What's the code? Is this another one of those kayak jargon terms that I'm not familiar with?
 
Jurfie said:
Scratches on the bottom of a composte ('glass) boat are to be expected. Shallow/surface scratches are cosmetic "battle-scars", and are usually not an issue. Deep scratches should be fixed, especially if the glass fibres are visible. This should be reflected in the price, and boats in this condition should probably be avoided unless you are willing to fork out more money for repairs.

But, what's a shallow vs a deep scratch? I know deep scratches are bad, but I'm not sure how to identify them so I don't confuse it with a shallow scratch.




What do you think about the scratches on this seda viking fiberglass boat?

Its been stored outside as the guy selling it claimed that UV rays from the sun wasn't an issue with fiberglass as it is with plastic. But, the yellow color seems like it might be a bit faded. When people warn to stay away from colors that have faded, is this what they're warning against?

But, my bigger concern is the bottom which has been painted/spray painted. As a naive newbie, should I be suspicious that the owner is trying to cover something up with that paint. Will the flashlight test still work, assuming I know how to do it correctly, if they've repainted or spray painted the bottom?

Check to make sure the rudder (if equipped) mechanism works smoothly, and doesn't have too much play in the operation. If it has a skeg, make sure it slides up and down easily. Make sure the footpegs can still be adjusted easily. Anything can be replaced, or even fixed with a little elbow grease and a good cleaning; just factor these into what you are willing to do vs. the asking price.

When I went to that speciality kayak store, I also looked over their new kayaks to get an idea what to look for. Yet, when I played around with their brand new seda, I didn't see the skeg really move. I was afraid if I couldn't even tell if a skeg was working on a brand new kayak how was I supposed to tell if a skeg was working on a used kayak.

The Seda Kayak is pretty old but its on sale for a really good price, almost too good. I know that the seat will need to be replaced, and I don't mind changing that for the price of the kayak.

But, I also think the rudder might be broken. How hard is that to replace and how much will it cost to replace that?
 
Hey Dana,
Sorry for my typo, that is "cord", instead of code.
For the ID#, the seller may not know what that is and not know where it is located. The location of the ID is something you have to ask to a maker if you can't find it. the last 2 digit of them indicates the model year.

To me, you are really nurvouse about the condition of the used boat. And many of those are something you just have to have some experience to see if you like it for the price of the boat, which you don't have yet. So find someone who can go shopping with you. Or find a club who dose pool session and ask them to see (with your own eyes)what kind of condition their boats have and if they are something to worry about. They should have good number of experienced paddlers who will be happy to help you about it.


Now about that boat on that photo you posted. It is hard to tell that white scratch is showing the fibreglass or just a scratch.
 
Dana-
You haven't told us where you are located (you posted the identical question on an Australian kayak site), or what type of kayaking you are planning to do with your new boat, or what experience/training you have.

The answers to those questions will make a big difference in getting good and specific advice.
A few quick answers:
For 'boat code', do a search on 'HIN boat code'. The HIN should be in two places in a boat- on the starboard side of the hull at the stern, and also inside the boat somewhere - usually in the cockpit.

If you are in North America, it is good to check the HIN against the 'stolen kayak database' at http://www.marinerkayaks.com/mkhtml/stolendb.htm

The year of manufacture makes much less difference than the condition of the boat. I recently bought a 1999 boat that is in better condition than most 2011 rental boats after a few days of hard use.

Sun-faded gelcoat can sometimes be 'brought back to life' if you know what you are doing with polishing and rubbing compounds. This does need some experience and skill.

And, in my opinion, the boat choice is more important than the condition. It's not very much fun paddling 'the wrong boat' even if it is shiny.

Are you really looking for a boat like the Seda Viking "With its larger cockpit space and high volume hull, our Viking is the ideal choice for paddlers with larger frames or limited mobility in their knees. " (25" beam) ?? (I own 'a few' sea kayaks ;-) and I wouldn't touch that Seda 'with a ten foot pole', but your needs may be different).

I don't know what your budget is, but you need to 'cost' the 'total package' that you will need to get on the water safely. By the time you buy a sprayskirt (to fit the boat), paddle, PFD, pump, throw line, (? paddle float), the best part of $500 will be gone. So, buying a bad boat to save a few dollars might not be wise.

Also, many people are nervous about advertising on Craigslist and similar sites. For my last boat purchase (that '99 boat), I got a direct contact to the seller through a mutual friend who knew I was looking for that exact boat.

Several folks have said it already: Rent, don't buy. Get instruction. Contact your local paddle club.

Cheers
John
 
JohnAbercrombie said:
Dana-
You haven't told us where you are located, or what type of kayaking you are planning to do with your new boat, or what experience/training you have.

John is right. Do you plan on paddling on lakes or slow moving rivers? Or are you planning on paddling on the ocean?

If you want to casually paddle on a lake, the boat will be fine, but you may want to keep looking if you want to paddle the sea.

Sea kayaks need to have some safety features to make them sea worthy:
Bulkheads & watertight hatches: A bulkhead creates a watertight compartment so that your boat doesn't sink if you capsize. Hatches provide a way for you to access these compartments. You can get away with float bags, but bulkheads and hatches are ideal for multiday trips.
Static Perimeter Deck Lines: The idea behind these are that they give a swimmer (or a rescuer!) something to hold on to. Boats are very slippery when wet. They can be installed on pretty much any boat.
Swim Toggles: These are mounted at the bow and stern of the boat. Again, they provide a safe place for a swimmer to hold on to.
Rudders or Skegs: I'm not going to start this argument, but some kayaks can become uncontrollable in high winds without the aid of a rudder or skeg. This is due to poor hull design. Rudders and skegs help provide directional stability in wind or light current.
Bungie lines: These are stretchy lines that let you secure essential gear (like a spare paddle, pump, etc) on deck.
Thigh braces: Thigh braces lets your knees grip the boat. This is important in rough conditions, or when you want to preform basic maneuvers like edging.

Dana said:
But, my bigger concern is the bottom which has been painted/spray painted. As a naive newbie, should I be suspicious that the owner is trying to cover something up with that paint. Will the flashlight test still work, assuming I know how to do it correctly, if they've repainted or spray painted the bottom?

Check inside the boat with a flashlight and see if there are any fiberglass patches.

Dana said:
I didn't see the skeg really move. I was afraid if I couldn't even tell if a skeg was working on a brand new kayak how was I supposed to tell if a skeg was working on a used kayak.
That boat doesnt' have a skeg. A skeg is a little fin that deploys from under the hull at the stern. It is controlled by a slider on the deck by the cockpit.
090%20skeg.jpg


JohnAbercrombie said:
Several folks have said it already: Rent, don't buy. Get instruction. Contact your local paddle club.
+1 :big_thumb
 
Try out the boat and make sure it floats. Then try to sink it. Then empty out the water and paddle it.
If you are still happy and feel safe with the boat buy it. If you don't feel safe in the water, don't buy and do not test!
It is that simple.

Roy
 
JohnAbercrombie said:
Dana-
You haven't told us where you are located (you posted the identical question on an Australian kayak site), or what type of kayaking you are planning to do with your new boat, or what experience/training you have.

I'm located in sunny Southern California, near Los Angeles.

I would have posted on a kayak forum more local to my location, but for that forum's gear discussion, there's only six threads and the last response was posted in 2009. So, I looked around for other kayaking forums for help, even if they weren't nearby. Is there any particular reason why there's no national or international kayaking forum with sub-forums for Aussie region, the British Columbia region, etc..

I live by a harbor/bay, so I wanted to learn/train there. But, after awhile as I got better, I wanted to take the kayak further out into the ocean and kayak. So, I'm looking for a kayak that I can grow into.
 
Dana, if you are worrying about scratches, look around boats as much as possible at rental boat yard, at pool sessions etc. just to be familier with scratches. it dosen't matter if it is different type of boat this time. You'll become familier with light scratch, midium, deep scratches. Same with fading, just keep pay attention grade of fading, you can take hatch cover and compare with the color of the hatch rim which is less exposed to sun.
You mentioned your budget is tight, so have a solid budget you can't go panny more, but make sure you put budget for safty gears aside.
Narrow down type of boat you want, this forum is grat for helping you narrow down the boat models.
And go shop around. Choose a boat with best condition within your budget. Don't choose a kayak with any scratch you've never seen on your "scratch tour".
If you want to take lessons and want to go salt water or big lake, the kayak on the photo is NOT suitable for newbie for all the reason Alana mentioned.
 
oil canning

Another newbie question, this time about dents and oil canning.

I did find this poly Looksha IV Kayak by Necky Kayaks for sale on Craigslist. Since everybody emphasized the importance of fit, it seems like this kayak would work for my body type. And, in general, it seems like it gets good reviews.

But, after seeing it in person, I'm not sure how concerned I should be about it and if I should walk away.

There were two dents or 'oil cans' on the bottom. (I'm not sure if dent and 'oil can' are referring to the same thing or not). How do you know when that dent or oil can is serious and something to avoid, and when its just cosmetic and will go away if you apply gentle heat to it? When is that dent structural, where its an indication that the boat is not long for this world? The seller said something like the dents were there after a year, but haven't been a problem since then.

And, the rudder seemed to work when I pulled on the strings inside the kayak. But, the rudder didn't move to one side when I used my right foot. In the pictures, is the kayak missing something on one side to move the rudder?

kayk2.jpg


kayak.jpg


The seller claimed he's been storing it inside. Do you think the photos verify that in that there's not a lot of color fading?
 
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