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1st time builder with progress pics and questions

DarenN said:
nice installation there! my only concern is that the fastex buckles are the weak point of the system, and they're in the part of the system that should be the failure safety.
Possibly, but they could easily be replaced for just a standard loop. I'm using them as less of a back up and more to just mitigate lateral movement of the bow so I don't have to cinch the roof straps down as tight on the new boat. There's not much chance of a rack separating from the roof in this system.

I don't trust the roof attachment points on the few racks that would fit this car, so passing the straps through the cabin and wrapping the rear and stern ones around the kayak keeps the boat from shifting left / right and ever lifting off. My only fear is that 2 of the 3 straps would fail (especially the front one) and that I would do long term damage to the boat by having to tighten them so much.
 
Skeg needed?

So has anyone here built a custom skeg for the AT? I keep hearing reviews that the Tern doesn't need one even when the wind kicks up, but since I've never paddled one I feel a little skeptical. I'm going to glass the inside of the hull and attach the deck soon, so I figured now would be the best time to build and install that skeg box.

I'd probably use the temporary hull supports covered in scraps of epoxy and fiber glass similar to these designs.

http://gnarlydognews.blogspot.com/2009/ ... g-box.html

http://www.nessmuking.com/articles/how- ... lass-skeg/

I suppose finishing the boat and seeing how it paddles would be better. With hatches I suppose it wouldn't be that much harder to install a kit after the fact...
 
I only know two paddlers with AT's, one has a rudder she never uses, the other has no rudder or skeg, neither one complains of tracking difficulties, so I'd think it wouldn't be necessary. Retrofit is a possibility, though, if you think you need one, if you have a large enough rear hatch.

Personally, I paddle sof's, and have never tried to put a skeg or rudder in one, but the only time I ever got a stiff enough following wind to cause wind cocking, I was able to counter it by offsetting my GP to compensate, with fine results.
 
Stumpy said:
I only know two paddlers with AT's, one has a rudder she never uses, the other has no rudder or skeg, neither one complains of tracking difficulties, so I'd think it wouldn't be necessary. Retrofit is a possibility, though, if you think you need one, if you have a large enough rear hatch.

Personally, I paddle sof's, and have never tried to put a skeg or rudder in one, but the only time I ever got a stiff enough following wind to cause wind cocking, I was able to counter it by offsetting my GP to compensate, with fine results.

Fair enough. I'll finish her as is and then decide. This is my first hard chined boat, so I guess leaning it works more effectively than my past brit style boats... I've recently become a fan of the GP and offsetting it seems to work nicely too.
 
Probably if you don't need a skeg with that Chatham 17 you won't need one with the Tern for control in beam seas/wind. Does the C 17 weather cock a little when neutrally loaded? I think that is the setup with the Tern, also, depending on where you plant yourself fore and aft.

How about surfing downwind? Does the C 17 stay on course or is it a broach machine? I'd guess it runs pretty true, but I've not paddled one.

BTW, I doubt those hard chines on the Tern are going to do much for you.

On glassing inside the cockpit: Definitely do it. Aside from the added strength, the glass helps a lot in preventing wear-through under your feet and anyplace else that gets repeated wear. Weightiness, I bet that Tern comes in 15 lbs under the C 17. The Osprey Std I built long time ago came in at about 38-40 lbs. A dream to flip onto the roof rack. Smaller than the Tern 17, but I bet you come in about 45 lbs. The C 17 is what, 60 lbs?
 
Hmmm, the Chatham doesn't weather cock nearly as much as my previous plastic sea kayaks due to the low deck, but I do use the skeg a little in quartering winds. I definitely appreciate having it fully extended in high winds. Still, I'll finish her as is and decide later if I really need it.

Yeah, the AT-17 with hatches / bulkheads shouldn't be over 45 lbs and I've been very careful with not giving it thick epoxy coats - much harder when it's cold. The C-17 is freakin 63 lbs empty, which is a bit much for such a very low volume boat. Other comparable poly yaks weigh at or below this and have way more volume.

This might seem blasphemous on a boat building forum, but my reasons for "upgrading" isn't so much the zen building experience or the look of fine wood grain, but because of much lower weight, occasional gear hauling capacity, and the feel of hard chines - in that order. Oh and an extremely lower price compared to a carbon seda ikkuma or Chatham-18...
 
I am the same "boat" Phrancis. The reason I am building the Borealis XL is because the only cockpit I found was comfortable! I have some mobility issues, from old war injuries and just not as flexible as I once was. That and I can modify it some(knee pads, move foot pegs back & forth, move seat back and forth). That and the fact that it is one forth the price of CF and lighter than a CF at 43 lbs.
 
Phrancis said:
Hmmm, the Chatham doesn't weather cock nearly as much as my previous plastic sea kayaks due to the low deck, but I do use the skeg a little in quartering winds. I definitely appreciate having it fully extended in high winds. [snip] ... but my reasons for "upgrading" isn't so much the zen building experience or the look of fine wood grain, but because of much lower weight, occasional gear hauling capacity, and the feel of hard chines.
I bet you are going to want that skeg if you used one regularly on the C 17. Compare hull profiles and the degree of pronounced keel on the C 17 with the mini-keel effect on the AT. Note also that the chines are only engaged seriously when on edge. a lot easier to put in a skeg box now versus later.

I'm with you 100% on the greater capacity and the lower weight for an AT. Good reasons to own and use a wood boat. The stiffness imparted by a wood core faced with glass and epoxy is remarkable, on a pound for pound basis. I think you are going to love the AT ... once you put a skeg in it!
 
@Rrdstarr - yeah very light and strong for a fraction of the price - except for your build time...

@Astoriadave - hmmm, I hope you're wrong and all those reviews about how the AT magically doesn't need a skeg are true. However instead of doing a saturation coat I went ahead and started fabbing up skeg components from the scrap temp frames. I'm going with the thin foil like on the Chatham, but even thinner and vertical like on the ikkuma (http://www.sedakayak.com/sea_kayaks/ikkuma/ikkuma.html). Hopefully that will keep the skeg box more low profile inside. The exposed foil is about a foot long. Is that overkill?
DSCF5289.JPG


All parts will of course be covered in fiberglass with stainless steel bolts, washers, etc and maybe a friction cable system. Although I'd be worried about having to build the recessed slider control part. Maybe a spring loaded version with rope pulley holding it back. I've never had that kind, but it looks easier to build. Any thoughts?
DSCF5300.gif

Like a big wooden pocket knife...
 
Not at all familiar with skeg design or best operation. I'd suggest more chord and less length for durability reasons. You might study the pivot systems in common use and think about making the cable run as straight as possible.

I bet Mick Allen would be useful here. Send him a PM if he does not come up on his own.
 
Well after a long talk with the nice lady on the Pygmy phone line, I've been convinced to screw the graphite powder n just go with brightsides paint and nix skeg idea until I've paddled her for awhile.

If I do install one I think I'll still go with a long thinnish foil but use a cord and bungie sys just like this: http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/sksg/skeg.htm
 
if i ever decided i needed to build a skeg; it would be a continuous loop. a pull-pull system, so to speak. pull back and foil deploys. pull forward (on the same line) and the foil retracts.

Daren.........
 
DarenN said:
if i ever decided i needed to build a skeg; it would be a continuous loop. a pull-pull system, so to speak. pull back and foil deploys. pull forward (on the same line) and the foil retracts.

Daren.........

Actually I was gonna go with that too. Delta kayaks has this pulley loop for their skegs with balls on the rope. You always pull the stern most ball to either retract or deploy. Sounds nasty.

This isn't their skeg box, but would work with that system - you read swedish right?
http://www.thomassondesign.com/post.aspx?id=1111666841
 
Glassed the inside of the hull this weekend. Went ahead and saturated n squeegeed the cloth without doing a saturation coat first. I'm not doing any fill coats to save weight.
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Since the cloth only goes up an inch above the shear line I decided to add a small patch to strengthen the tip where the handles go.
DSCF5316.JPG

Decided to put boat build info and my info (in my chicken scratch handwriting) under the glass so they can identify my corpse.
DSCF5315.JPG

Pygmy said I could fix the mis match in lighter colored wood glassed years ago, by simply sanding off the panel butt seams and panel surface. So I broke out the 40 grit and ROS. Lots of work and lots of dust, but it looks light and clean. Wish I had known this from the beginning.
DSCF5306.JPG

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So I never used my day hatch much, but like the idea of newer boats with that 4th hatch/glove box in front. Since the deck is so high and peaked it seems like a good candidate for a shelf/trampoline before I attache the deck to the hull. Here I'm looking at different containers to mold some of the excess glass cloth around.
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In the end I'm thinking a trampoline bag will be more flexible by offering lots of space for the knees yet expanding when I need to stuff it full. I found this nylon stuff sack from a conference. I'm thinking of just gluing one side with epoxy flush to the deck, fiberglass tape the edges, and replacing the drawstring at the mouth with shock cord. The bag might however peel away when stuffed so I guess I should really glass in some mounting points and suspend the bag with shock cord. Using bungie cords and netting worries me as far as getting feet caught in it during a wet exit. Any one have advise on under deck bags/shelves?
DSCF5311.JPG
 
Under-deck storage

Phransis,

I'm thinking of using a welding rod holder/container under the deck of my new AT-14 that's in the works. Mark did a wonderful job molding one on his AT-14 a couple of years ago.

Oldpro
 
After some research, I decided that a mesh trampoline would be the least obtrusive yet offer flexibility. I didn't want a lots of shock cords and brackets to get stuck on, so I modified that idea and a zippered lingerie mesh laundry bag was epoxied to the underside of the deck this morning.
DSCF5321.JPG

Seems pretty flush
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This afternoon the whole thing became solid and I glued the deck and hull together.
DSCF5328.JPG


So I still need to fill a few seams, glass the deck on, a few fill coats, and bulkheads, but I still have another gallon of epoxy, besides what's in the pic below. I've been very careful to do thin coats, not a lot of saturation coats, squeegie a lot, and waste hardly any epoxy throughout the build (mainly to save weight), but should I have this much left. I think I will have used a little over half when all is said and done.
DSCF5334.JPG


My hatch/bulkhead kit arrived in the mail today and I was thinking about holding off running epoxy along the inside shear seam with that dowel rod extension thing. I mean, wouldn't it be easier to just reach in there and run a nice clean line with the syringe when the hatches are cut out?
 
Man I gotta get back at mine! You are light years ahead of me Phrancis!!! Looks real good so far! I like the lingerie bag being your under deck bag. Might have to steal that idea, but I might sew Velcro to it and stick it up there when I need it, AND when the zipper gives out I can replace it with an identical bag.
 
I might be paranoid on this, but that mesh on the laundry bag concerns me. I could see it snagging something on my footgear. I really like a clean, hard surface underdecks, but the open weave of the bag sure does solve the drainage issues with the glassed-in enclosures I've seen.

On the epoxy usage: you've only used half of the original resin you got? That seems way off. Unless, you have not done any fill-the-weave coats yet. That really sucks up the resin. And, you want to be double-dog certain you have enough on top of the glass so that when you sand back to a fair surface, you do not cut into the glass. It really does not pay to be overly meticulous about filling the weave. Slather it on and corral the major runs -- take down any you missed with a carbide-bladed scraper, let the resin cure for at least a couple weeks, and then go at it with 80-grit on the random orbital sander, for the panels only. The panel seams are very easy to over-sand, so hand sand those areas with a sanding block. In the end, you will really dislike sanding! :wink:
 
safety

Use extreme caution!
Here is one quote from the Safety section that got my attention.
"Hi, ladies with dropseat again!
It happened to me again the otherday. I was just doing roll practice and exited and this time the zipper housing itself caught on something in the cockpit. "

This is making me rethink the water bottle restraint I have under my deck.
When you upside down under water you might have 30 seconds to think clearly before panic.

Roy
 
The instructions that come with the original kit state that you may wish to leave the filling of the inside shear lines until after the hatches are cut out provided you are installing hatches. Waiting makes the filling of the shears much easier.

With hatch openings cut you can also go in and lay a fillet and reinforcing tape around each of the bulkheads where they meet the hull and deck (both sides of the bulkheads) to give some added strength to those areas. Don't want to be popping a bulkhead loose!

There is a thread in "here" somewhere also about drilling a tiny hole in the top of each bulkhead to provide for pressure/vacuum relief on the hatches. When I originally built my Coho I didn't do that and it turned out to be a devil of a time to try to pry the hatches off after the boat had cooled down in the water. Even with the hatches sitting "loose" overnight they'd suck down tight. The "breather" holes are a great idea. The idea is that you drill a 1/4" hole and then fill the hole with epoxy. Then drill a smaller breather hole through the middle of the epoxy so that water can't get into the wood plies.
 
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