Alex Morton Launches Petition

Discussion in 'General Paddling Discussions' started by canoecat, Mar 19, 2009.

  1. Chris_Hvid

    Chris_Hvid Paddler

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    Yesterday, 40,000 Atlantics escaped and gill netters were reporting widespread capture in their nets. And today a driver spilled diesel in the Chemainus River. And last week it was reported that widespread "snagging" a.k.a "unsportsmanlike behaviour" was observed in several local rivers, including Sooke, Nitinat, and San Jaun estuary.

    Just one more week in "the death of a thousand cuts".

    I'm depressed.
     
  2. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    http://www.salmonfarmmonitor.org/stanifordpaper.doc

    http://www.farmedsalmonexposed.org/media_banning-pr.html
     
  3. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    Dead Fish and Fat Cats
    [​IMG]
    http://www.viacorp.com/dead-fish-and-fat-cats.pdf
     
  4. ken_vandeburgt

    ken_vandeburgt Paddler

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    I'll reiterate. I guess if we don't like DFO's conclusions the only recourse is to conduct an independant study of the life cycle of Lepeophtheirus salmonis lice.

    Not much is known about sea louse. Yes there are inferred studies indicating transference from farmed fish to wild fish. But there is nothing that indicates the conditions under which sea lice flourish.
     
  5. ken_vandeburgt

    ken_vandeburgt Paddler

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    Ayuh.

    I would hardly call the video objective.

    When was the video taken? Certainly it predates this years returns.

    Ditto.

    My source is what I see. What I see is the Quinsam where the dead fish (post spawning) are nearly thick enough to walk across the water. The news from the Broughtons is that the runs there are also exceeding all records. The news from up and down the coast is such that the price of pinks has dropped to the point where DFO couldn't get people to fish them.

    I'm not saying there isn't a problem. The problem though is overstated and not properly understood.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon_louse
     
  6. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    There is more than enough known about salmon lice that many reputable scientists consider the transfer of salmon lice from farmed salmon to wild salmon to be a serious problem.

    Google Results 1 - 10 of about 5,270 for "salmon lice" + "life cycle"
    Here's the first search return:

    Full article here
    Do you see the word QUANTITIVE? That means they collected numerical data. This is not whimsy ... this is a peer-reviewed scientific study in a first-class scientific journal.

    Google Results 1 - 10 of about 5,230 for "salmon lice" + transfer
    Here's the first search return: http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/33/d033p179.pdf
    Here's the fourth return: Royal Society
    I repeat: There is more than enough known about salmon lice that many reputable scientists consider the transfer of salmon lice from farmed salmon to wild salmon to be a serious problem.
    To state otherwise you'd have to be malicious, greedy, or stupid (or a moron).

    modified Hanlon's razor:
    Dan Millsip:
    Ken V:
    The problem is NOT overstated. The problem IS understood by scientists. The problem is not understood by lay people who either don't read the scientific literature or who don't understand it or who ignore it because they have an agenda.
     
  7. DarrenM

    DarrenM Paddler

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  8. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Just noting that you have to be logged into FaceBook for that link to work.

    Minister of Agriculture and Lands Steve Thomson, states that the recent farmed salmon escape is being investigated by DFO. That fills my heart with promise. :roll:

    *****
     
  9. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    government in action (OT)

    A cowboy named Bud was overseeing his herd in a remote mountainous pasture in Alberta when suddenly a brand-new BMW advanced toward him out of a cloud of dust.

    The driver, a young man in a Brioni suit, Gucci shoes, RayBan sunglasses and YSL tie, leaned out the window and asked the cowboy, "If I tell you exactly how many cows and calves you have in your herd, Will you give me a calf?"

    Bud looks at the man, obviously a yuppie, then looks at his peacefully grazing herd and calmly answers, "Sure, Why not?"

    The yuppie parks his car, whips out his Dell notebook computer, connects it to his Cingular RAZR V3 cell phone, and surfs to a NASA page on the Internet, where he calls up a GPS satellite to get an exact fix on his location which he then feeds to another NASA satellite that

    scans the area in an ultra-high-resolution photo.

    The young man then opens the digital photo in Adobe Photoshop and exports it to an image processing facility in Hamburg , Germany . ;

    Within seconds, he receives an email on his Palm Pilot that the image has been processed and the data stored.. He then accesses an MS-SQL database through an ODBC connected Excel spreadsheet with email on his Blackberry and, after a few minutes, receives a response.

    Finally, he prints out a full-color, 150-page report on his hi-tech,miniaturized HP LaserJet printer, turns to the cowboy and says, "You have exactly 1,586 cows and calves."

    "That's right. Well, I guess you can take one of my calves," says Bud.

    He watches the young man select one of the animals and looks on with amusement as the young man stuffs it into the trunk of his car.

    Then Bud says to the young man, "Hey, if I can tell you exactly what your business is, will you give me back my calf?"

    The young man thinks about it for a second and then says, "Okay, why not?"

    You're a cabinet minister from Ottawa, says Bud.

    "Wow! That's correct," says the yuppie, "but how did you guess that?"

    "No guessing required." answered the cowboy. "You showed up here even though nobody called you; you want to get paid for an answer I already knew, to a question I never asked.

    You used millions of dollars worth of equipment trying to show me how much smarter than me you are; and
    You don't know a thing about how working people make a living - or about cows, for that matter. This is a herd of sheep. ....

    Now give me back my dog.
     
  10. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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  11. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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  12. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Onwards and upwards.

    This just in...


    Hello All

    Good News Finally! Peter Julian, Member of Parliament – New Westminster has just launched a petition for a Judicial Inquiry into the Fraser sockeye crash.

    CONSIDER THIS: If there had been a Judicial Inquiry into the declining North Atlantic cod, we would have rebuilt that fish stock by now because we would have discovered that the critical research by Dr. Ransom Myers of DFO was being suppressed by DFO (Department of Fisheries and Oceans).

    Here we are again. DFO is completely silent, they have not even acknowledged that the Fraser sockeye crash pattern is extremely specific and provided the media with misinformation.

    A judicial inquiry will place people under oath so they can be heard over the politics.

    Please go to Peter Julian’s website: http://peterjulian.ndp.ca/node/864

    And download the petition document, and sign: Petition Form

    This has to be a paper copy, there can be 1 signature on a page, or a full page of signatures, the address is on the document and postage to the federal government is free.

    You cannot say you care about wild salmon if you don’t make this effort. This will make a very big difference in the future of BC and the eastern pacific.

    Alexandra Morton
    Www.adopt-a-fry.org



    Please print out the petition, sign it, have your friends sign it, and send it in.

    *****
     
  13. ken_vandeburgt

    ken_vandeburgt Paddler

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    DFO collected quantative data too. We're all ready to suggest that their quantitative method is suspect so why do we readily accept the quantative study of some other PHD as fact?

    Occams Razor. In my experience it is almost always the simple answer that is the correct answer. If the scientist cannot explain his quantitative results so that they can be understood by lay people then the quantitative results are likely suspect. Ever heard the phrase 'Baffle 'em with Bullshit'?

    So far all the science is devoted to finding if sea lice can transfer to wild fish. One after another study dedicated to painstakingly working out the patently obvious.

    So far no study appears to have determined what are ambient levels of sea louse and under what conditions those sea louse might exceed those ambient conditions. Very little is known about sea lice.

    Further, there is no quantitative proof that it is sea lice that has decimated the salmon runs in years previous to this one. Just inferred data from infected fish in a tank at DFO.

    So we have a theory that suggests the wild salmon are being decimated by transferrence of sea lice originating from fish farms. There is proof that the tranferrence is occuring but there is not proof that the fish stocks are being decimated thereby, not when there is a return as we have seen this year. The theory ignores an entire ocean full of other possibilities and contributors to the problem.

    This year there are so many pinks that the price has made them not worth fishing for. I'll suggest this is the reason for the big return; the human predation and tendancy to overfish is satiated due to lack of financial incentive.

    Sure, go ahead. Close the fish farms. I have no financial stake in it. From a kayaking point of view the farms are an eyesore, the noise a distraction, and the waters at nearby beaches are always unpleasantly thick with algae. Good riddance I say. But whom will you then blame when the fish do not return in the expected numbers?
     
  14. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    :roll: :roll: :roll:
     
  15. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    :roll: Have to agree here. Ken, have you even read any of the links that have been posted? So much of what you've just posted is incorrect and has been discussed here already. Please, take another look at what's been posted in this (albeit long) thread.

    *****
     
  16. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON SUSTAINABLE AQUACULTURE
    Some extracts from the Campbell River meeting: --- (my choosing)

    R. Kwakseestahla: Our position on the fish farm has been zero tolerance. ... I was anchored with my captain on the vessel I worked on in Kanish. ...
    -- There used to be tons of oysters and tons of clams, ... I went into that lagoon, and I was totally flabbergasted. ... "Go look at Granite Bay, and look what happened to the oysters and the clams in the lagoon that we call Kanish."

    P. Marshall: In closing, I would support both the provincial and national chambers of commerce resolutions on this topically. Basically, they recommend that governments (1) fairly interpret and apply existing regulations as they pertain to salmon farming projects, (2) ensure that the relevant regulations and programs be implemented to support the development and expansion of aquaculture and new programs be developed that recognize unique features of this segment of Canada's food production system and (3) base regulation and expansion of the industry on legitimate and responsible research into the environmental impacts of water farming.

    V. Egan: My name is Van Egan. I'm from Campbell River. I've lived here for 50 years. I've seen the gradual decline of the salmon resource during that time. I feel that fish farms are one more obstacle to their survival.
    -- Just to refresh your minds about the scientific studies that have been carried on regarding the problem of sea lice proliferating around open-net-cage fish farms and the danger of sea lice and their larvae wreaking havoc on out-migrating salmon smolts. In this matter, I would like to think that the findings of these studies by reputable people of the scientific community will bear more weight with you than some of those mind-numbing pronouncements of the industry's professional public relations people.
    -- We should all be aware that science does not have all the final answers to problems, which we might like, especially those problems where multiple variables exist, but good scientific research provides us with the best answers we have at this time. These interpretations of collected data should be the basis for decision-making. In the matter of open-net-cage fish farms the evidence is clear that they are deathtraps to out-migrating salmon smolts. It seems to me that we should be questioning whether fish farming is sustainable at all. I would say it isn't, even if placed in closed containment systems on land.
    -- To provide the feed for farm fish requires four pounds of oceanic food obtained from the aquatic life of lesser immediate value to us to raise one pound of farm salmon. To make the food pellets for farm salmon requires fishing down the ocean's food chains. Multiple tonnes of the ocean's food web must be extracted to grow one quarter the amount of farm salmon. Is this a smart move? Is this good management of the world's resources? I think not.
    -- It's true that much of this fishing down on the food chain takes place elsewhere on the globe, but are you aware that 500 tonnes of krill have been netted each year out of the Strait of Georgia during the past decade?
    -- The Strait of Georgia is not showing signs of being the great, healthy fishing pond it once was. It may not be the only factor in diminishing those not-so-long-ago days when coho and spring salmon were abundant, but it seems conceivable that to continue these krill harvests will jeopardize any efforts to bring back the wild salmon of the Strait of Georgia - nor will the continued existence of open-net-cage fish farms.

    J. Ritchlin: The thing about the closed systems is that by controlling all of the environmental factors of the growing conditions, you reduce - in some cases significantly, 10 percent to 20 percent - the amount of feed required to run your operation. This is also an economic benefit, since feed is usually one of the largest cost inputs for fish-farming operations - feed and labour in North America and clearly feed in South America.
    -- Eco-farm is a company in Europe that won a $500,000 U.S. prize from the French government to build land-based, fully closed systems on the coast of Normandy in a highly sensitive zone of cultural and natural heritage to the French government. They're also building systems in the Faroe Islands. These will be for salmon as well as other species.
    -- AquaOptima is a joint government-industry private research effort in Norway. They're growing a number of coldwater salt species in closed tanks, as well as freshwater species.

    P. Gibson: It's very important for us to be economically viable, and it's of no interest to us to make mistakes and to destroy the environment that we're working in. Fish always have been and always will be a primary indicator of the health of the environment, and farm fish are no exception to that.
    -- It's extremely important to us to keep the fish healthy, keep them clean of lice so they feed well, and we don't waste resources.

    B. Milligan: Currently we monitor sea lice monthly. That's part of the regulations. It's audited quarterly by the ministry. We have set thresholds for action. During times of smolt out-migration, which are typically March, April, May and June, you have a set action level of three. So at three motile lice per fish, you have to then treat, harvest or have some other management decision in place.
    -- The rest of the year, when you don't have out-migrating smolts, it's six. At six motile lice per fish, you then have to impose some action. Currently, during this smolt out-migration period we've been far less than three motile lice per fish, so there hasn't been any action in place at all in this period.

    J. Gordon: The scientific community has collectively proven that we should treat human sewage before dumping it into our ocean, and even this treated sewage is pumped out into fast currents, away from the delicate shoreline. But nothing is being done to treat fish-farm waste, which has, I assume, more drug residue and growth enhancers than human waste, not to mention the pesticides used to kill sea lice.

    B. Walker: ... people think either you can support the wild fishery or you can support salmon farmers but that you can't do both. We say: "Wrong." Not only can we do both, we absolutely must do both

    E. Blueschke: We're engaged in a court-mandated consultation, and what brought us there was the application by Marine Harvest to place Atlantic salmon into the farm at Church House. Their application went in, in April of 2004, and the provincial government did not notify us of that application until July of 2004.
    -- In that notification, it said to us that the decision for authorization would be handed down on December 8 of 2004. They didn't tell us, but we found out through court afterwards that the authorization actually happened on December 7, and they promptly began to put Atlantic stocks into that farm.
    -- We were notified on Friday, December 17, at 4:50 - the last day before the Christmas holiday - and our offices close at 4:30. Luckily for workaholics like me, I was still at work, and I saw this fax coming through the machine. We promptly contacted our legal counsel, who were on their way home for the Christmas holiday as well.
    -- We filed an injunction, and on December 24 we were successful. We had a judicial review.

    R. Stevenson: Why are we being hit so hard with regulations when it is only shellfish, you say? Go figure. But I can tell you that I give talks all over the province about shellfish farming. I always like to refer to this one talk in front of the legislative buildings with all that grandiose and all the people with the cameras - CBC and whoever. Someone behind a very large camera said: "How do you guys handle escapements, anyway?" You know, I tried to keep a straight face, but shit, it was hard.

    J. Holder: If we continue to exploit the wild fishery to the extent we do today, it will not survive. Salmon farming will allow it to regroup, and if government implements the proper safeguards it will flourish alongside the farming industry.
    -- With fish, up to a quarter of the high protein food consumed is excreted as feces.
     
  17. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    This online book is a great look at
    (1) how fishing boats have become too efficient.
    (2) why the DFO quota/licence structure is fubar.
    (3) how fishermen can manage a resource (black cod) sustainably.
    [​IMG]
    http://www.viacorp.com/dead-fish-and-fat-cats.pdf

    The Canadian Sablefish Association
    has this to say about black cod aquaculture:
    http://www.canadiansablefish.com/aquaculture.htm
     
  18. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    I'm going to give KenV the benefit of the doubt & address some of his questions (even though I think he's trolling).
    (1) DFO is not impartial
    (2) Many academics are impartial
    (3) Good scientists keep their opinions out of their papers
    (4) It sounds like you don't understand the significance of peer-reviewed scientific study in a first-class scientific journal. They are more selective than the local newspaper. Why don't you try to get your rants/opinions published in Nature ? You WILL be rejected.

    Occam's razor says that you don't read/understand any of the studies that are posted. Scientists who publish in scientific journals are writing for their peers. They would be ridiculed (or lose their grants) if they dumbed-down their papers. On the other hand, there are lots of scientists who can explain things in person (to a reasonably-intelligent person).

    (a) the studies cover a full range of issues.
    (b) scientists need to prove even the patently obvious ... otherwise it's not science.
    (c) check out the Recommended Reading & References in this overview of salmon aquaculture to see the range of studies.

    False ... A report on background levels of sealice here

    There is not quantitative proof yet (dna testing is in the works) ... but there is much more data than from a dfo tank ... don't you read anything?

    It is more than just a theory ... read the literature.

    So you admit the theory has proof ... that makes it more than just a theory. It's too bad that you can't understand that excellent returns in two rivers with human-enhanced spawning grounds does NOT imply that sea lice are not a problem. Go take a course in logic.

    No it does not. We have said repeatedly that sea lice are just one problem that salmonids face ... but it is a pressing problem.

    Are you saying that humans intuited that there were lots of pinks so no pink fishing was done? Or did the price of pinks bottom out the day after the season opened? Otherwise, I would expect to have seen a glut of pinks in the grocery stores ... I didn't.

    You have posted repeatedly that your portfolio is more important to you than the environment. Shame on you.

    Lots of people rely on aquaculture for direct or indirect employment, but this employment should not cost us the wild salmon. Hopefully we can keep both ... but our governments have to get off their asses.

    Again, there are multiple problems facing wild fish. They all need to be tackled. But there is no sense in allowing one factor to wipe out the salmon just because there are other factors. DUH.

    We can see farm locations, track sea lice numbers, and applications of SLICE here
     
  19. greg0rn

    greg0rn Paddler

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    Here is a link to some strong statements about DFO:

    http://www.focusonline.ca/

    Download this month's edition first, then go to page 26.
     
  20. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    AGREEMENT FOR THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PROVISIONS OF THE UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA OF 10 DECEMBER 1982 RELATING TO THE CONSERVATION AND MANAGEMENT OF STRADDLING FISH STOCKS AND HIGHLY MIGRATORY FISH STOCKS

    Article 6

    Application of the precautionary approach

    1. States shall apply the precautionary approach widely to conservation, management and exploitation of straddling fish stocks and highly migratory fish stocks in order to protect the living marine resources and preserve the marine environment.

    2. States shall be more cautious when information is uncertain, unreliable or inadequate. The absence of adequate scientific information shall not be used as a reason for postponing or failing to take conservation and management measures.

    The Agreement was adopted on 4 August 1995 by the United Nations Conference on Straddling Fish Stocks and Highly Migratory Fish Stocks and opened for signature on 4 December 1995. It remained open for signature until 4 December 1996 and was signed by 59 States and entities.
    (including Canada)

    text from http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/fish_stocks_agreement/CONF164_37.htm