Anas Acuta kit

Discussion in 'Boat and Accessory Building' started by nermal, Mar 6, 2008.

  1. nermal

    nermal Paddler

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    So I just heard that Valley loaned an Anas Acuta to CLC Boat so they could take lines for a kit boat, possible release early next year.
     
  2. Doug_Lloyd

    Doug_Lloyd Paddler

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    That is truly good news for those unable to procure a F/G version at a reasonable price. I assume plans will be offered too. The Igdlorssuit-type plans available now, combined with the availability of the Anas, broaden out the choices. One could build the Anas at a lighter weight than the F/Glass versions, with the cockpit arrangement one preferred, and add a skeg easily.

    Ultimately, I'm looking to build a low-profile storm-paddling boat with bomber construction at a reasonable weight, with a deck layout to my complete satisfaction. So far, Bjorn's Njord and Hunter are the only two build-yourself kayaks with plans that look promising. I'm waiting to try out a Point 65 Whisky 16 for inspiration; I've fallen in love with the Nordkapp LV that is a natural replacement for my 1980 Nordkapp, but was a disappointment when I finally got into one as it wasn't as low-profile as I imagined it would be.

    Not sure if I may end up building a strip version of my older Nordkapp HS, but lower the profile a bit more and add some rocker for maneuverability in waves. The Outer Island by Jay Babina looks promising, but is also a tad long in the waterline.

    I've done over 400 hours in modifications to my 1980 Nordkapp, and noticed my fit and finish was done to a higher level of perfection (on my deck modifications) than the factory LV in terms of hatch cover fit, anyway.

    [​IMG].

    Surely this kind of effort and time commitment would suit a strip built kayak more appropriately.

    Doug Lloyd - Local boat abuser
     
  3. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Very cool. 8)

    *****
     
  4. costain

    costain Paddler

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    Any idea if they are considering doing the same for the Q-boat? (similar HV vs. of the Anas Acuta)
     
  5. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    doug,

    considering that a typ s&g build takes abt 150 hrs and a strip say 300,
    you don't want to build a wood boat.
    it just might be a pastime that you will never get out of, or never be adequately satisfied with.

    heh heh.


    and if the clc rumour is true, i wonder what build type it will be? up until a few yrs ago clc was only s&g, but in recent yrs they have branched out to hybrids, then to both s&g and strip with the shearwater line of kayaks and then more s&g and strip with (some, all?) guillemot kayaks.

    on 2nd thoughts it'll be s&g as the anas is so chiny.

    Anyway, here’s a schematic s&g takeoff of an ‘anas acuta’ that I call the ‘acuta anass’ obviously. (17-2x21ish, 8panel s&g)


    [​IMG]


    heh heh.

    .
     
  6. Doug_Lloyd

    Doug_Lloyd Paddler

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    I take it that boat building can be pretty addictive - I've taught a vocational woodworking at Tools n' Space Woodworking in Victoria for 25 years part time until they closed in 2006; I've got good skills and all the right toolage, so we'll have to see.

    I phoned Mike today at Ecomarine to see if I could get a good price on the Nordkapp LV I tried out at the Tiderace demo here in Victoria recently. I really liked the LV, save for the higher-than-I-expected volume. I want a deal 'cause I'm thinking of taking a newer LV and slicing it up, cutting out 3/4 inch from the seam line, and rejoing the deck and hull. Way more LV. Here's a pic of me loving-up the LV, from the Flicker files:

    [​IMG]

    I've had some good back-channel talks with Bjorn regarding his designs in strip built fasion. He's a proponent of the fast-build approach - lots of epoxy fill between roughly laid strips, then a quick fair and perhaps paint. I also purchased Doug Alderson's Forager for $500.00 off UsedVictoria recently. We are the same height and I like the Oceancockpit and the well made S&G construction. I'll certainly see how well this type of construction holds up to abuse over the next while.

    [​IMG]

    An S&G Anas, painted in two-part polyurathane paint (I aways spray my kayaks, not brush on the paint job) in black would be a way-cool kayak too. I was second on the list of the gal that was selling the used Anas out of Oregon that was on the list here being talked about recently on a different forum. Here's a black Anas:

    [​IMG]

    I guess I'm torn by my desire for a killer storm-monger kayak in my normal medium of modification, GRP, versus the craftmanship and beauty of fine woodworking I know I'm capable of. So there we are again - more than one boat we forsee.
     
  7. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    oh oh, telling quote. with yr background and attention to detail, yr sunk! wood build here we come! (stay away from the quick flooded strip build as it is just a procedure to rapidly bring a prototype to form - not what a wood boat is about - unless you were trying to build a bunch quickly)

    but with the glass boats, i'd think you'd want to order the shorter and lower volume nordkapp classic rather than the actually larger LV.

    and for your stated purpose, i don't see why you'd want the long overhang wind and water leverage of a hunter or anal acuta - njord looks interesting, tho'.

    .
     
  8. Doug_Lloyd

    Doug_Lloyd Paddler

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    mick,

    the overhang makes 'm look good though...yeah, Bjorn feels the Njord is THE rough water boat in waiting for the world to discover.

    As for the overhang, manouvering this class of kayak in heavy winds is as good as a workout at the gym. :)

    DL
     
  9. woodensoul

    woodensoul Paddler

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    Doug, just had a look at some pictures of the Njord. It is very simmilar to Nick Schade's Night Heron. Looking at the drawings it seems the Njord has a little more flare in the hull above the chine, so maybe a bit more secondary stability... Anyway I have a Night Heron if you want to see how one paddles...

    ws
     
  10. Doug_Lloyd

    Doug_Lloyd Paddler

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    'preciate the offer. I need to get to a wooden boat festival sometime and look at the designs and testers. I've only ever seen strippers at the odd paddlefest type event, though the Redfish King was impressive in Ladysmith a few years back that I saw.

    Bjorn's quick build philosophy isn't a bad one if one wants to paint the kayak afterwards anyway, just as an S&G can be more complex (recessed rims, etc) without taking up so much time as paint can cover over a lot of epoxy fill.

    I was also talking with a guy in the USA who cold molds canoes with veneers, epoxy, and Kevlar, using vacuum bagging. There are certainly lots of ideas out there if you want to think outside the box. I've also toyed with the idea of making my own "cedar strips" out of 16' lengths of my own home made plywood (don't like cedar as a boat medium).

    But as far as design, I really have some strong opinions about what I ultimately want and would be willing to sit in and paddle. I just hope I'm not in an old age home by the time I make up my mind.

    DL
     
  11. Redcedar

    Redcedar Paddler

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    Bryan Hansel has a great website , including a photo build-along of a Emmanuel Korneilson's kayak that spawned the Anas Acuta and other models.

    http://www.nessmuking.com/iggy1.htm
     
  12. woodensoul

    woodensoul Paddler

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    Hey Doug, What's your aversion to cedar? Just curios. Is it the toxisisty, splintering or... You can actually make strip boats out of any wood that is reasonable clear that you can get your hands on. WRC is just very plentiful and easy to get in this locale. Remember that what your making is a glass boat with a wooden core. The wood does add tortional strength and if it's not painted it adds "pretty". Anyway strips can be made from any knd of wood or potential composite. Big Yauchts are now being constructed with sandwiched foam cores to cut their weight down, same concept... Just keep an eye on the weight of the material you use. If your core material adds no impact or tortional strength you will have to beef up your glass lay-up a bit, but still doable. Nothing but opportunity for creativity. Have fun!
     
  13. Doug_Lloyd

    Doug_Lloyd Paddler

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    Cedar is soft, darkens with age, is easy to place under tension and then get movement lines later; years of woodworking suggests too that encasing solid wood without allowing for movement isn't a good idea, though a Google search reveals only one hit against cedar strips for boats and they did allow grace for smaller boats like kayaks. Also, I just like to be different. :)

    I'm extremely hard on my kayaks; I jump over logs, do seal launchings and landing on exposed coastline (like Storm Island off Cape Caution). I need tough. I need strong. If I make a coupe of kayaks over the next while, I may do one in cedar for regular light duty touring; then construction wouldn't be an issue with that one and I could do the whole wood is beautiful ethos thing. I've had long emails with Nick (I like his book) about number of glass layers, etc. My current expedition laid-up GRP Nordkapp had a couple of extra 6 ounce layers of glass/epoxy on the inside hull added by me (95 pound boat now), and I still crack it now and again. You can see why I'm a bit nervous about cedar. Marine ply is the usual route, but limits a round bildge hull profile.

    Jay Babina, in an old Seakayaker magazine had a kayak profiled in a little blurb; he mentioned how difficult it was to avoid scratching it up. Maybe you can see why I like the quick-build n' paint idea, at least for a first kayak for my storm/rough water kayak. I also like the idea of a cedar kayak quick-build, but then cold veneered over with mahogany or walnut (just veneer, remember) for a bright, still light boat.

    There's something nice about a bright boat - old world, maintain with varnish, tactile and handsome. So, I might look like a log out there. That's what all my Brit-boat buddies call you stripper guys out there - floating logs. Nice, eh?

    I also drew up plans this week for a cedar over carbon fiber kayak. The Mitchel paddles are built this way, and it would blend high tech with old-world, even more than the OneOcean kayaks do with their coamings and rudders in carbon (cost a lot more for the carbon too!). Carbon deck/strip hull or carbon hull/strip deck with carbon coaming/hatch recesses? Hmmmm! I'd also place Kajaksport hatches under removable hatch covers (front and back) for a double hatch system if I did the cedar deck. I think one of the CD poly kayas has this arrangement on the front hatch, so that there is a seperate top cover that matches the deck profile, lift that off, then there is a normal high quality rubber hatch underneath. I'd make the top strip hatch covers bigger of course than the picture below, more rectangular like the Outer Island plans, with the rubber one below.

    [​IMG]

    Overkill? Yes. I love it. Anyway, I like the look of wood and carbon fiber. I'd do matching paddles too, Euro and GP in carbon over wood. From the Mitchell website:

    [​IMG]

    The "make-my-own" "cedar strips" using long pieces of homemade plywood wouldn't be too difficult if done proactively before fully engaging the build proper. I'd resaw 2X4 (X16 feet) hardwood, plane or thickness sand to 5/32 X 4, then veneer press short pieces between the two long lengths, the short pieces would be 4" wide by 1/16 or so by a convenient length and glue at right angles two the two outer lengths for true plywood construction. The two outer veneers would leave enough meat for the router beading bit profile so no sand through to middle veneer would show through.

    I also love the quality of yellow cedar I might be happy with that as a substrate; get the aircraft quality stuff.

    Okay, so my brain never slows down. What is practical and achievable in real time remains to be verified.

    Cheers
    doug
     
  14. woodensoul

    woodensoul Paddler

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    Hi Doug, sounds like you are having fun with the cogitative process. A few more comments from my experience.
    - Hull peneteration resistance is really a factor of the number of layers of glass. In a cored boat inside layers can be more important than outside, as I think you recognize from your comments on modifying your own boat.
    - Denser wood and edge grain wood do add a bit more 'denting' resistance, but its not significant compared to the glass wrap. Note that denser woods also add weight...
    - Yellow Cedar is great, but as you know the stuff is expensive...
    - Carbon and wood in terms of a strip build in my opinion is a waste of time. The thing that strip construction excells at is its exceptional tortional strength (stiffness, rigidity). That's essentially what carbon does. Light weight and rigid. It has lousy impact resistance, so you often see it blended with kevlar in a cloth. A sharp wrap on carbon fractures it. The kevlar on the other hand has tremendous impact resistance but lousy rigidity, hence the blend... I have some sample layups comparing different materials for rigidity that I will post some time. I haven't done a carbon one yet as I am out of it and it was $70 a yard last time I bought it...

    Anyway thought I'd give you a bit more input to mull over...
     
  15. Doug_Lloyd

    Doug_Lloyd Paddler

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    - Carbon and wood in terms of a strip build in my opinion is a waste of time. The thing that strip construction excells at is its exceptional tortional strength (stiffness, rigidity). That's essentially what carbon does. Light weight and rigid. It has lousy impact resistance, so you often see it blended with kevlar in a cloth. A sharp wrap on carbon fractures it. The kevlar on the other hand has tremendous impact resistance but lousy rigidity, hence the blend... I have some sample layups comparing different materials for rigidity that I will post some time. I haven't done a carbon one yet as I am out of it and it was $70 a yard last time I bought it...

    Anyway thought I'd give you a bit more input to mull over...[/quote]

    Thanks for the kind input. I'd certainly combine the carbon with kevlar, but like you suggest, diminishing returns. And expensive. I just love the look of carbon fiber, you know...

    Some of my plywood boat building buds just detest cedar. I'm still at a loss to know which way to go. But even cedar offers stiffness, so the idea of a light cedar strip build, with a layer of kevlar, then a layer of nice veneer, and a final layer of glass - all bagged, might hold promise, though this works better with the bigger surface area (less acute curvature) of a canoe, as seen here from

    http://www.fulcher.com/

    [​IMG]

    Nick felt that given my track record with heavy kayaks, a killer-stripper could be made to withstand extreme abuse and still come in under 60 pounds or so.

    Well, cognition is good. Choosing the correct course takes time. Making a big, expensive mistake...that's to be avoided.

    BTW, my last post about home made ply strips: I'd rip the 4 inch strips to 5/8 or so after veneer pressing. I also meant to say 5/32's was the thickness of the two outer veneers; added to the inner 1/16+ gives the final thinkness of 3/16+

    I have made my own plywood to maximum widths of 36"( x 60" long) that the 36" SCM widebelt sander would allow, but wide sheets always work out heavier than manuafacturer's plywoods and never press as flat (for uniformity of veneer thickness). I used to thickness sand for musical instrument customers - talk about picky.

    Hope I'm not wasting bandwidth thinking out loud here on the forum

    doug
     
  16. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    yah, you gotta slow down and think it out a bit, heh heh.

    anyway, normal vacbag will usually mean you have to build a good mould first and that the floppy veneers of whatever kind will stay against the mould and its approximate shape while you set it all up - 10s of strips of ply won't do that if the shape is complex- you'll likely have to use thin veneer.

    and if you don't have a beginning mould, you'll have to have one bag side initially to build against plus a semi-mould and that will be a bitch and a half keeping it all together while you juggle all the pces to set it up.

    [if you don't have an intitial mould or semi mould, with any negative pressure, you'll end up with concaves like an anemic bulemic anorexic. (oh i get it, 'anorexic acuta'! - the new thread topic. . .)]

    sounds too complex if you don't have the intitial step of a negative. but you just might be the type of of guy who wishes to do the double time.

    seems like you have the skills, so build-interpolate (or have designer plot out) a set of of forms at 6" (or closer) o.c. and use 1/8 or 3/32 b&c (to knit edges) open grain cedar (for the lightness and stiffness of keeping basic shape) and just add internal layers of kevlar (with maybe some interspersed coremat in 12" band of the hullkeel) and outer multiples of s- glass for the strength and appearance.

    so you get the super light initial shape carrier (cedar) with the addition of strength and durabitity of the composite laminations and additional cores.

    and if it gets mushed in use, just repair in a combo of usual composite and wood way, by fixing inner lams up to the wood layer on inside, repair thin wood if nec to the shape of the now repaired inner composite armature, and then re-add outer glass lams. relatively simple and aesthetic and also shows the history of the encounters to a degree while still maintaining the overall wood appearance - like it is real easy to repair thin layers of cedar.

    (i used a sim approach on the s&g playak 'facetious' where all the inner lams are cf or kevlar to keep it all together if mashed, and then all outers in multiples of satin and ordinary e-glass (shoulda been s) on thin ply)

    like use the cedar to the minimum thickness/wt to get the shape and then just add all the other stuff you want to it. keep track of your glass layers and types so you'll know how heavy you'll end up. and if you are absolutely set on vacbag, use the set up initial glass lyr (say a thin one) as the inner bag liner and work from there outside, remove ass'y and use all as outer bag lyr for inside glassing/coring.

    and it you want even more durability, use that assembly as the armature for the inner lyr and shape of a vacbag. and then you can go to town with adding/reducing volume at the sheer wherever you want based on the initial build.

    [and whatever you do, pls orient the grain in the same direction as the yak - that diagonally veneered canoe is not true to the apparent nature of the material and therefore just looks like clever crap.]

    .
     
  17. kelly t

    kelly t Paddler

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    Forager kayak

    Doug_Lloyd wrote



    Doug

    Have you got any more pics of that yellow S&G? I would like to see, and know more about it.
    thanks,

    kelly t
     
  18. Doug_Lloyd

    Doug_Lloyd Paddler

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    Re: Forager kayak

    It's a really nice kayak; it has a very low-profile deck (not a low profile kayak, though). Which means it's nice for a low, ocean-going kayak stroke, yet fits a lot of gear and has good foot room. I didn't like the performance in a tide race for playing and it does paddle nicer with a bit of a load. Without additional loading, the hull flops over a few degrees to port or starboard constantly due to the "V" in the hull. I'd make it a bit flatter in the hull amidship but then it wouldn't track as well. Doug A. built a sister kayak to this one and did just that, adding a rudder for those long sojourns across contrary conditions.

    Doug A. in the sister kayak from the Paddlefest site:

    [​IMG]

    Doug's two kayaks have been featured in many SK articles and in some of his books.

    Here's some recent shots of the first Forager, the one I have:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Doug cut some of the bow and stern off to make it more manouverable, leaving a blunt looking bow.

    Let me know if you want to look the kayak over or go for a paddle together. Please specify type of waters you want to paddle in if you take up the offer.

    Doug Lloyd
     
  19. kelly t

    kelly t Paddler

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    Doug

    Thanks for the pics. Is this a design by Doug A.?

    As for the offer to go out for a paddle... I am still very much a beginner! But, once I have more experience, and no longer feel that I am holding others back, I will look forward to getting out there with others.

    I am including a pic of the Ken Taylor 'Igdlorssuit" kayak I built last summer. The 'Igdlorssuit' is the kayak that the Anas Acuta was derived from. My version is plywood frames with stringers, and a nylon skin sealed with oil-based polyurethane.
    DarenN was generous by lending me his drawings of the kayak's stations, as well as offering a lot of assistance!
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Doug_Lloyd

    Doug_Lloyd Paddler

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    Thanks for the pics. Is this a design by Doug A.?

    As for the offer to go out for a paddle... I am still very much a beginner! But, once I have more experience, and no longer feel that I am holding others back, I will look forward to getting out there with others.

    I am including a pic of the Ken Taylor 'Igdlorssuit" kayak I built last summer. The 'Igdlorssuit' is the kayak that the Anas Acuta was derived from. My version is plywood frames with stringers, and a nylon skin sealed with oil-based polyurethane. <snip>

    Kelly,

    Doug's designs are his own. He is a very sensible fellow.

    I love your kayak. Looks like a joy to paddle.

    Hey, I doubt you would hold folks back - at least, I always (these days) paddle in deference to the other paddlers along (unless I can't keep pace, etc., then one hopes some good karma interjects back.

    Doug L