Anyone else have problems sitting in a kayak for hours?

I don't get you folks who don't use a back band?? The way I paddle (pushing forward with my legs and hips with each stroke) I have to have something solid to push back against. The one time I paddled without a backband, I felt like I couldn't paddle nearly as hard because I just kept sliding backward. (Unless there is something else to stop you from sliding back that you can push against?)

The best backbands for me are low—they just provide a bit of a "shelf" for me to push back against...
 
SWriverstone said:
The one time I paddled without a backband, I felt like I couldn't paddle nearly as hard because I just kept sliding backward. (Unless there is something else to stop you from sliding back that you can push against?)
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For me, the point of 'driving with my legs' is to keep the paddle from pulling me forward out of the seat.
Feeling the paddle start to pull me forward is the 'trigger' that I use to initiate the leg drive.
It took quite a while to get that working right. Once I did my 'chafed back' problems disappeared. :)
There's no point pushing back against the backband, IMO. That's not driving the boat forward.

Shawna Franklin (BodyBoatBlade co-founder) told me: "The only purpose of a backband is to remind you to sit up straight!"
 
We may be talking about similar things and just giving them different names. I definitely have back support.

I view a back band as a support that is adjustable with straps etc
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Below is the back support for a seward ascente; low, plastic and screwed into the kayak; not adjustable.

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Hmm...well that Romany seat does have back support (it would feel very different if the back of the seat was just flat). I'd say that seat has a "molded-in backband" instead of a separate one.

As for whether or not you need to push back, I've found discussions of what happens when you take a stroke to be extremely fraught. A perfect example of this is the old "don't pull the paddle back to you, pull the boat up to where you plant the paddle" saying. Sure, it's helpful to *think* about pulling the boat up to where the blade enters the water...but are you actually doing this? That's a bit of a Schrodinger's Cat dilemma and can't actually be proven without connecting someone to a tank in a lab and wiring the paddler, boat and water with 100 electrodes and accelerometers and motion sensors and high-speed cameras. :)

I know this much from my years as a serious whitewater racer: the more tightly you are connected to the boat, the more energy transmission there is from your body (and the paddle) to the boat. In other words, "slop in the system" equals loss of energy. So when I say I "push back against the backband," what I really mean is I ensure I'm not loose in the cockpit, but firmly braced front-to-back from the footpegs to the backband. (When I really want to paddle fast, that is.)

Sure, if I'm just dawdling along at a relaxed pace, I can be loosey-goosey in the cockpit and it's no big deal.
 
SWriverstone said:
I'm still contemplating the "other alternative," which is on longer multi-day trips, just stopping more often and getting out of the boat! I haven't yet heard convincing evidence that this is impossible to do on (for example) an Inside Passage trip.

Meaning, it sounds to me like people are mostly just in the habit of sitting in their boats for 6-8 hours at a time and never really thought about trying to take short "land breaks" every couple hours...
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People have definitely thought about trying to take breaks every couple hours. There will be times when that’s possible and other times when it’s not. As Pascal explained above, sometimes the weather conditions or the shape of the shoreline will mean the winning move is simply to stay in your boat for the full day, meaning six or eight hours or whatever other number of hours constitutes a “full day” for your trip.

On those days with unfavorable conditions or unfavorable geometry, it doesn’t really make sense to paddle an hour out of your way or whatever (plus another hour back) just to take a break on shore for a few minutes. All that extra time in the boat, you’ll be ready for another break by the time you get back from taking your break!

If you get to a point where you can do a full day in the boat whenever you have to, you may find yourself doing full days in the boat simply because you want to—because it’s both faster and less effort not to stop for breaks. Staying in the boat all day isn’t a matter of unthinking habit. It’s the fastest and easiest and, therefore, best way to travel.

Like Pascal, I’ll almost always eat my lunch afloat. I’ll usually go to the bathroom afloat. (For males, it’s an easy trick.) The only times I’ll stop for a break are when it’s some kind of deliberate destination, as in something ashore I wanted to stop and visit for its own sake, or sometimes if there is a very easy beach that is directly adjacent to my track. But if the beach is more than a couple minutes out of my way, then I usually won’t stop. There just isn’t any need. In the same way it usually wouldn’t make sense for a jogger to detour several blocks out of his way just to sit on a park bench, it usually doesn’t make sense for a kayaker to detour several hundred meters out of his way just to stand on a beach.

Alex
 
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It’s the fastest and easiest and, therefore, best way to travel.
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I get what you're saying Alex. And it's entirely possible that when I paddle the IP I'll become obsessed with banging out one big-mile day after another nonstop. :)

But I'm not sure I'd agree that paddling nonstop is the "best" way to travel. I used to do 20-mile days backpacking. I could cover serious distance that way...but I always felt like it was a race and grew tired of it. Now I find that 12-15 miles/day is ideal...because that gives me time to stop often, take photos often, and just enjoy the scenery and details more.

Clearly part of my difficulty is that not having done a long BC coast trip, I'm having trouble visualizing how, for an entire day, you might literally never pass even a small piece of land where you can hop out for a few minutes. So I'll just take your word for it. :cool:
 
I'm with John on backbands and with Alex on getting out of the boat. I don't miss a backband at all. I drive with my legs for rotation and don't need something against my back to act as a stop. As far as stopping to rest I am happy resting in my boat. Stopping, getting out of my boat to rest, getting back in just seems like an unnecessary hassle to me. I do usually end up stopping for lunch when paddling with others but when solo, "dining aboard" is my usual thing.

I'm not fast and if given a choice will only paddle about 12-13 nm a day so it isn't like I'm trying to make maximum miles. It's just that I am comfortable in my boat and I prefer to avoid the hassle.
 
SWriverstone said:
you might literally never pass even a small piece of land where you can hop out for a few minutes
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It depends what you mean by “pass.” If there’s a good landing beach two miles off your route, would you say your route “passes” that beach? Or is it too far away to count?

More to the point, if your goal is to take a break every two hours or so, does it really make sense to paddle the extra four miles to and from that beach just so you can have your break? At four miles per hour, half your paddling time would be devoted to break-taking instead of progress-making. (And that’s before factoring in the length of the break itself.) If there’s some medical reason to do it, then so be it, but it isn’t very efficient navigation.

Alex
 
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Well like I said @alexsidles, I'm not as familiar with the geography and shorelines as you are. It sounds to me like what you're saying is that either you are 2 miles out in open water (nowhere near any land whatsoever), which doesn't sound like the IP...or that huge amounts of "shoreline" along IP passages are either vertical cliffs or boulders impossible to get out on (which might be the case?). I make no claims to know or understand the shorelines up there. :) My only experience has been in the San Juans...and there, you're pretty much never more than a few hundred yards away from someplace you can stop and get out (but I'm sure that's different).
 
There's something to be said for loosey goosey. There's a trade-off between comfort (alternatively consider the word sustainability) and power.

If I'm a bit of a looser fit then I can wind up more comfortably, and use lots of torso rotation from the hips to power my forward strokes. If I have a large backband, thigh braces with lots of really positive contact, then there's also a fair amount of friction that comes along with that.

A friend and I are planning a trip where we discussed rafting up and waiting out bad conditions as a serious possibility.

I'd pretty happily give up 10% of "fit" and the associated boat control, if it means I can wiggle my legs, stretch, and generally move around.
 
You are correct it’s not like the SJIs. I’d suggest five days in desolation sound to get a sense of what it the IP can be, because the tidal change is much more extreme. The rock and boulder beaches will influence whether you can even stop at your anticipated camp site. I hate ledge camping, I hate loading a kayak in a rapidly ebbing tide in an oyster bed. All things that are now variables because of the geography. You may sit for a few hours waiting out a tide or just moving on to the next site. There simply isn’t that awesome bailout.

In the IP There can be cliffs for miles. There might be places to sidle up to it for a stretch, but watch those ankles on slippery rocks.

Like the others, I just stay in my boat and have a stretch.
 
@CPS - I agree! And I'm by no means locked into my boat 100% of the time. I prefer paddling boats that are almost "too big for me" (with roomy cockpits) for the same reasons others have said: the ability to pull your knees up, wiggle around, etc. But you can have both: plenty of room to move around, but when you mean business (want to seriously put out some power and go fast) you can lock yourself in. I'm certainly not suggesting everyone should have a backband or lock themselves in, but I've found that when I need to "crank things up to 11" I find being locked in helps a lot. And as I've probably said ad nauseum, I come from a whitewater background—and I can assure you, you do NOT want to be loosey-goosey when you're paddling class 3-4 whitewater! There's an entire cottage industry designed to make whitewater boats fit you like a tight glove. :)

@ChrisPoteetPdx - thanks for those pics! And yes, I had those kinds of shorelines in my mind (fir trees almost right down to the water, large gnarly rocky beds with oysters, etc.) I can only offer two things that don't change reality, but inform my thinking: first, when I say "get out of the boat and take a break," I'm not talking about stopping for an hour (time enough to be screwed by fast-moving tides). I'm talking 5-10 minutes. Also, a big reason why I'm a dedicated rotomolded kayak paddler is the near-indestructibility of rotomolded boats. I have no qualms whatsoever about sprinting in one of my boats rght up onto the shore, LOL.

But yes, I do understand that oyster beds can shred even a rotomolded boat...it just might take longer to shred them enough to become a real hull compromise, LOL.

And absolutely! I do need to get up to Desolation Sound and spend several days there as a training run. I'm going to try to do that this summer!
 
@Slim Chance - This whole thread has been a question about seat time, that's all—whether staying in your boat for 8 hours a day is absolutely necessary?

It's a bit ridiculous (to me anyway) that there is something "wrong" with me (or anyone) just because I like to use my legs once in a while to stretch. I don't think in itself there is anything unusual or wrong with this. (Not said defensively. :) )

Even people who sail around the world on their own boats can stand as much as they want. Nobody says to them "Why aren't you sitting for your entire circumnavigation?" (I know, not exactly the same but you get my drift.)

I'm pretty sure if you ask anyone in society if they enjoy sitting for 8 hours straight, they would say without hesitation "No." Because it's simply not the best possible thing for your body.

And...if it turns out that it is impossible to do an IP trip without sitting for 8 hours straight (and peeing and eating lunch in your kayak) then that's what I'll do. :cool:
 
If sitting in a kayak seat for hours starts to be a pain in the ass, it's likely the result of tight hamstrings and glutes. The solution is to stretch those muscles before you get into the boat. If you don't practice yoga, you can lie on your back, throw a rope over one foot and pull that leg down towards your face while keeping the other leg out front. Hold it there for several breaths. Then do the same on the other side.

The idea of getting out of the boat once in a while is problematical. Launching and landing are the two most perilous operations, and are sometimes impossible. Even if possible, they can certainly be time consuming.
 
Thanks @dmon707...I'll try the stretching. I think between that and improving my foot positioning (e.g. get rid of side-mounted pegs and get a footboard rudder control system) I'll be far better off.

And not to beat a dead horse, but I still am not understanding why everyone is so anti-launching and landing?? I get that launching and landing can be perilous from a beach with huge, pounding surf. No argument there. But my understandng is that you'll rarely encounter this on the Inside Passage (the Outside Passage, of course!). Am I wrong?

I also get that you simply may not find a place to land and launch again for long distances (e.g. trees right down to the water, boulders and cliffs, etc.) That makes perfect sense.

Where I'm still detecting an "information gap" is accurate data on how few launch/landing spots there are? Given the tendency of folks here to avoid landing anywhere until you're done for the day, are you even *looking* for places to land? (Is it possible you passed plenty of nearby places where you could get out of your boat safely to stretch a few minutes because you just weren't looking for them?)

I'm not talking about a big, nice, flat, calm sandy beach to get out and chill for an hour. I'm talking about **any relatively flat spot that you could paddle up to and safely get out and stand** or take a few steps around for a few minutes, then get back in and carry on. Are there truly no places like that for miles on the IP?

Perhaps my IP paddle will be the first passage with multiple launches and landings each day! LOL :cool:
 
I don't know much about the inside passage, except around Bella Bella and Queen Charlotte Strait, because I prefer the outside coast. No mosquitos;) But even in calm waters, it can be difficult and time consuming to find a decent place to pull over. You can also surprise critters without a warning noise or injure yourself (as I have) from surprise hazards. It's nice to take a land break for lunch sometimes, but only if conditions and terrain allow.
 
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