Arctic Tern 14 - first timer

Discussion in 'Boat and Accessory Building' started by Tahoedave, Jun 11, 2007.

  1. Tahoedave

    Tahoedave Paddler

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    Here is the first of what will, I expect, be a long series of questions as I build my first Pygmy kayak. An Arctic Tern 14.

    I’ve looked through some of the building posts but since we have a snail-link (dialup) it will take a while to read all relevant posting, hence my questions.

    Question one – The part A and B epoxy pumps supplied by Pygmy are to deliver measured amounts, assuming the limiter is installed on part B. How much can I trust them or should I use the two measuring cups supplied by Pygmy and then transfer the epoxy to a mixing cup?

    This will be the first time I have attempted to use epoxy so want to do it right.

    Pygmy suggests a warm “bath” for the epoxy jugs before first use. They are in the sink as I write. I have had them in the house which is in the low to mid 70’s during the day, for two days. Probably cooler at night. I have a temperature gauge in the garage, ah, boat shop, and this morning around 9 it said 62. We have often 40 degree plus temp swings but the garage is insulated so outside temps are more extreme.

    As soon as I have anything to show I will start taking pics. So far I have not even started day 1.

    Oh yeah, I have 3/4 plywood on sawhorses which is 2 feet wide and 16 feet long. I read in another post a suggestion to use hollow core doors. I think that is a good idea since 2 feet width is not much to work with and limits how much can be worked at a time, at least when doing the initial panel joining.
     
  2. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Tahoe, sent you a PM.

    On the table: 24 inches of width is enough; if you are on sawhorses, marry two sheets end to end, leveling the whole thing so the sheets form one continuous platform. You will have to back the sheets with 2x4's screwed onto the underside, to prevent mid-sheet sagging. Hollow core doors avoid most of the sag, and are worth it. Get eight-footers, if you can find them. Sevens are OK, though.
     
  3. sushiy

    sushiy Paddler

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    I would use syringes and condiment tube to mesure the epoxy. even the pump is aculate, transfering it from cups to mixing cup is more time consuming than using the syringes, and a lot of times, you use only a few ounces of epoxy which is done more easily with syringes. My pump was a little off.
    I got big syringe (2oz) ( at the end of my project :roll:)and small ones . So for the 6oz job, 2 big syringe full of rasin and 1 syringe full of hardener, just push the thing down, easy!!

    Did you get those tools we all love? Those are great time and patience saver.
     
  4. sushiy

    sushiy Paddler

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    What is that seacret talk?? Aren't you gonna share the tricks of trade with me??
     
  5. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    It's stuff you've seen before, sushi. Here it is:

     
  6. Tahoedave

    Tahoedave Paddler

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    New to me

    Dave K -

    All this is new to me so need to not only know what to use but where to look for the items needed.

    Also could not find the DarenN page detailing how to mix the epoxy. Can you give me an idea of what search term to use?

    And, do parts A and B weigh the same, e.g. one ounce of A and half ounce of B equals 1.5 oz?

    I would like to get started but don't want to get off on the wrong foot so to speak.

    D -
     
  7. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Re: New to me

    I think this is the page that Dave was referring to:

    http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/buildin ... =12&pos=46

    *****
     
  8. sushiy

    sushiy Paddler

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    Re: New to me

    I found :
    Carbide blade scraper - Lowe's paint section ( tool section people did not know about it)
    Sure Form ( the cheese grate looking tool)- Fred Meyer hand tool section.
    Small syringes - drugstore
    large syringes - boat shop who sells Mars brand epoxy.

    mixing cup ( big stack of clear plastic drinking cups), condiment tube, wax paper which you need to protect your board from glueing to...lets say floor, boxes of gloves,
    --restaurant supply store is great, but reguler grocery has those.

    System Three's customer service is great, they call me back within just a few hours of me leaving the message to them for the question. Pygmy's service outstanding too! But West Coast Paddler is almost 24hours open :wink: We got chemistry specialist, wood working specialist, boat building specialist who all paddle :D Me?? Just make sure you read my signature every time :lol:
     
  9. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Re: New to me

    Close. If you are using System Three materials, the ratio is one part resin to 0.44 parts hardener. If using WEST system or another brand, check their literature.

    Really, though, you might want to check out the pages Dan references. Avoids the weighing, I think.
     
  10. Tahoedave

    Tahoedave Paddler

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    Thanks

    You guys are great! Thanks to Sushiy for the ideas for shopping. Today I am, after my coffee, going out to the "boat shop" to build a plywood box with light bulb to keep the epoxy warm. Maybe I will get to the first butt joints before the weekend. Fingers crosssed. :D
     
  11. mewisemagic

    mewisemagic Paddler

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    good luck on the build tahoedave. I found the first step the hardest and most overwhelming. once i got started however, i became obsessed and was somewhat sad when the build ended. I hope you find your build as fulfilling.
     
  12. Tahoedave

    Tahoedave Paddler

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    Another question

    and then, hopefully, I can get started.

    I recently read somewhere on this site that one should wash the plastic cups used for mixing the epoxy before using one. Is this a significant issue?

    Yesterday I cobbled together a epoxy jug box with a light bulb to keep the temp up. My garage seldom gets below the low sixties these days and the house is a bit warmer even when it is thirty eight outside (six a.m.).

    I read in the System 3 book that heat speeds up the process and shortens the pot life so there has to be some middle ground. Maybe around seventy five for the epoxy environment? My concern is having the epoxy too thick but then I have not experimented so have no idea what will actually happen. Yet.

    One last question - should I continue to use this thread for questions or start new ones?

    D -
     
  13. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Re: Another question

    I'd recommend washing them with dish soap and then rinsing. Some manufactures of the cups use a release agent on their molds that is incompatible with certain epoxies. For the amount of effort that it takes to wash a few cups, it could well save you an enormous amount of grief later.

    It's entirely up to you, but it might be a good idea to use this thread so that others can follow your build -- and please, post some photos of your progress -- we all like seeing photos of build projects.

    *****
     
  14. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Re: Another question

    Preface: what follows is for S3 General Purpose Resin and Medium Hardener.

    Tahoe, pot life is a function of the initial temp of the resin and hardener, the total amount of stuff you mix together, and how much surface area it has after mixing (relative to volume). If you work in a shop which is at 65F, and incubate the resin and hardener at about 80-90F, by the time you have combined the two and begun to mix, their temp is down a bit, to maybe 75-80F. Within a minute or so, mixing should be completed, and the temp will be about 75-80, most likely.

    The best procedure is to immediately begin using the epoxy for whatever task is at hand, taking pains to get it spread out onto the surface where it is to be used to maximize the surface area so it will cool, and so any heat released by the ingredients as they react (aka combine) -- called an exotherm -- will be dissipated.

    If you mix an ounce of resin and half an ounce of hardener in a small container and let them sit, within five minutes that amount of mixture will be so hot you won't want to hold onto it. And, it will begin thickening, to the point it is useless for wetting out fiberglas.

    OTOH, if you take that same mixture and immediately spread it out onto a surface, using a plastic squeegee (in the kit) so it is at most 2-3 mm thick, it will not heat up, and will be useful for many minutes (at least 10, depending), and fluid enough to saturate wood or wet out glass. the squeegee is your friend. :D

    The bottom line: be ready before you mix the stuff.

    When you are not: dump the batch if it starts to thicken or heat up a lot; you can not use it; using it will only make your life more difficult and cause your hair to fall out! BTDT!! :roll: :lol: :oops:
     
  15. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Re: New to me

    That's correct Dave, the syringe method (which was shown to me by Daren Nuefeld) doesn't use weight, instead the measurement is done by volume. The System 3 ratio for volume is 2:1 -- making life very easy by eliminating those pesky fractions.

    The syringes (that I use) are marked in CC's -- I've mixed batches as small as 3 CC's with no problems.

    *****
     
  16. keabird

    keabird Paddler

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    Re: Another question


    To add a little side note here to Dave's wisdom. I decided to mix a monster batch of epoxy one fiberglassing session. About 20 seconds into the mixing the epoxy started to smoke and boil. It got so hot on my hands I had to drop it. I then watched it melt the mixing cup and turn into a hockey puck from hades right before my very eyes. In other words, if it is warm in your shop go with smaller rather than larger batches of epoxy. :twisted:
     
  17. Tahoedave

    Tahoedave Paddler

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    Time to take the first step

    I believe I saw one post where DarenN marked a plastic cup showing resin and hardener lines for several amounts of epoxy. Also the syringe from the ketchup bottle for small amounts.

    I have read so many posts I have lost track of where I have seen some of the ideas. I need to start taking notes so I can reference back to things I want to know.

    The epoxy jug light box is ready, I have several sizes of syringes and have washed my clear plastic cups. Marked one of the cups as Daren did for 1.5 and 3.0 oz mixes. Put down left panels #1 and #2 for gluing the butt seams. All I need to get started. Time to learn while doing.

    I bought a cheap thermometer for the workspace and have been taking note of the temperature at various times of the day. It, so far, has not gotten below 60 at the coldest and seems peak around 2 or 3 p.m. and then starts dropping off again so from what I have read about out-gassing afternoon is when the epoxy work will be done.

    Thanks to all for the advice and ideas. Now it is time start working on the boat. I’ve had them for almost a week now and all I have done so far is lay out the first panels, do setup, and learn about epoxy.

    Astoria D – have you tried the Pig ‘n Pancake? It’s where we have breakfast when passing through.
    :D
     
  18. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Tahoe gut bomb eater wrote: Astoria D – have you tried the Pig ‘n Pancake? It’s where we have breakfast when passing through.

    Oh, yeah. Guaranteed to fill you up. Astoria has grown a bunch of good restaurants in recent years, with the Hog and Waffle a mainstay, for sure.

    Others to try:

    Slow, wholesome breakfasts, individually cooked in a retro hippie environment, with custom-made pepper-based jellies to anoint the toast or taters d'jour, etc.; very wide menu: Columbian, about 11th and Marine Drive

    Middle of the road breakfasts, with access to tasty seafood (Hangtown Fry, etc.); no pancakes, and a narrower menu, but cheaper than the Pig: Doogers, on the S end of the Hwy 101/26 causeway on the way to Warrenton (Youngs Bay Plaza).

    Outstanding bakery and breakfasts/lunches, a little meager on the portions, but about the healthiest food in town (no meat, though): Blue Scorcher, Duane and 15th. Right next door to a new, tasty brewpub: Fort George Brewery.

    Good treats, breakfast bagels, outstanding coffee, and over-the-water views on the outside of a circa 1890 cannery/cold storage facility: Coffee Girl, 39th Pier and the Columbia River. Owner recently married to the owner of the Fort George. Will their kids be Fort Girls or Coffee Georges?

    Too much food, so little time. There's always epoxy for dessert, I guess.
     
  19. Miklos

    Miklos Paddler

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    Wet Dog Cafe and Brewery is my fav for Astoria.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Tahoedave

    Tahoedave Paddler

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    T plus one

    Thanks for the restaurant tips. Always looking for something other than a fast food joint, which we NEVER go to. Like brew-pubs a lot.

    Well, this evening I finally mixed a 1.5 oz batch of epoxy using the marked measures on a clear plastic cup. I stirred for over a minute but felt no heat. Brushed epoxy on the seams, laid the glass on, brushed more, waited, no bubbles, brushed more like the instructions said to do then put on the Mylar, did the squeegee bit and then weighted down with a 2x4 and brick. The epoxy in the pot never got much warmer than, my guess, 70 or 80. From start to finish it seemed like thick syrup. The workshop is now around 72.

    Tomorrow I will find out if the epoxy set up or I botched the job/mix, whatever. The clear plastic cups I am using are 7 oz and have a pretty wide mouth and bottom so maybe that contributes in some way.

    I may be looking for a local brew pub sooner than I planned.
    :?