• We apologize for the somewhat convoluted sign-up process. Due to ever-more sophisticated attacks by chatbots, we had to increase our filtering in order to weed out AI while letting humans through. It's a nuisance, but a necessary one in order to keep the level of discourse on the forums authentic and useful. From the actual humans using WCP, thanks for your understanding!

Bears

OK, I agree, a modern .50 caliber black powder rifle with modern black powder will probably have a detrimental effect on a bear, especially at point blank range. On the other hand, it's heavy, single shot, and you must keep the powder very dry.
An M16, though, is lighter, smaller,multi-shot, the ammo is water resistant, and much more suited to culling out some of the inept, garbage- leaving campers I've met, giving Smokey more space, so he may not bother me at all. :wink: I guess it's a trade off....
 
Stumpy said:
OK, I agree, a modern .50 caliber black powder rifle with modern black powder will probably have a detrimental effect on a bear, especially at point blank range. On the other hand, it's heavy, single shot, and you must keep the powder very dry.
An M16, though, is lighter, smaller,multi-shot, the ammo is water resistant, and much more suited to culling out some of the inept, garbage- leaving campers I've met, giving Smokey more space, so he may not bother me at all. :wink: I guess it's a trade off....
Click to expand...

I know your jesting, but just to clarify a couple of things about muzzleloaders and M16's: muzzleloading a .50 cal round ball is not using modern technology--it is comparable to 'old style' muzzle loading. With modern 'bullet shaped' sabots, etc. the modern muzzleloader will maintain tremendously greater energy downrange than the above example considering the very poor BC of the round ball.

Here's and example: http://tinyurl.com/qrc3pr Instead of 329 grains (g) as in Darren's example, this modern muzzleloader shoots a 420 g projectile at 2041 fps creating a muzzle energy of 3886 ft. lbs. Way more than a 30-06, which is a comparatively mild round anyway. My elk rifle develops 4800 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle--big animal, big gun to put them down fast and as ethically as possible.

An M16 uses the .223 Remington round-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO A great plinking, varmint coyote, etc. round. But, it's not legal, for instance, to use for hunting big game in Washington state (deer, etc.) because it is too small and not powerful enough to be considered ethical for use on big game by the state. It's designed for humans--unfortunately as that is--which don't 'soak up lead' very well. So, yeah, it will deal well with the nasty campers you mentioned (yikes...), but it's probably really tick off the bear unless you could very precisely place a shot in the brain--it may also penetrate to the vitals of the 'engine room' of a 200 lb. black bear, but doing so is probably a bit of a 'chancy' proposition.
 
shot accurately
Click to expand...

That being the key phrase. The time I got charged at I'd have been lucky to get a shot off in the right quadrant. If it were a pistol the bear would be gauranteed safe but I'd probably shoot myself in the foot.

Canada's military bought the C16 - a modified M16. Near as I could figure the only advantage that it had over the FNC1 (7.62) it replaced was that you could drive a tank over it. The replacement cost was much lower.

I shot black powder on a range once. We had targets at about 20 meters. The ball shot has a lot more wind resistance than the bullet does. No way to shoot accurately beyond that distance.

Having hiked a few kilometers I can tell you there is no way I would lug a 5kg rifle over all those trails and routes on the off chance of getting attacked by a bear. There is no room in the kayak either that couldn't be better filled with a bottle of wine or a dozen cans of suds.

Leave the weaponry at home; you don't need it.
 
Seems to me that these days the odds of getting hit by a stray shot from a drug gang are higher than getting chewed up by a bear! (at least you can reason with the bear).

(That last is a bit of humour, btw). :D
 
Description of a bear on a hunting forum I frequent:

this was an old bear had no teeth on the front bottom and had a run in with ppl before when I skinned it out for him we found #2 lead shot all under the skin and then when we skinned the head out the next day we found a 22 bullet in the head between the hide and scull
Click to expand...
 
On the other hand if you are going to go armed...
503_300pxCarl_Gustaf__recoilless_rifle_1.jpg


Go large or go home.
 
ken_vandeburgt said:
shot accurately
Click to expand...

That being the key phrase. The time I got charged at I'd have been lucky to get a shot off in the right quadrant. If it were a pistol the bear would be gauranteed safe but I'd probably shoot myself in the foot.

Canada's military bought the C16 - a modified M16. Near as I could figure the only advantage that it had over the FNC1 (7.62) it replaced was that you could drive a tank over it. The replacement cost was much lower.

I shot black powder on a range once. We had targets at about 20 meters. The ball shot has a lot more wind resistance than the bullet does. No way to shoot accurately beyond that distance.

Having hiked a few kilometers I can tell you there is no way I would lug a 5kg rifle over all those trails and routes on the off chance of getting attacked by a bear. There is no room in the kayak either that couldn't be better filled with a bottle of wine or a dozen cans of suds.

Leave the weaponry at home; you don't need it.
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, I'm certainly not advocating a muzzle loader for personal protection from bears or anything else. I was just trying to clarify a couple of things was all. And, I believe Darren was talking about a hunting situation--something totally different than personal protection.

The weaponry and bears/personal protection question usually gets ugly on boards as it brings up a strong personal philosophies. It is interesting to see how disparate a group of (I'm guessing pretty much all peace/fun loving) kayakers can be on this isuue, however.
 
jmden said:
The weaponry and bears/personal protection question usually gets ugly on boards as it brings up a strong personal philosophies.
Click to expand...

Agreed. This discussion is fairly tame. I always get a chuckle when discussions on "why humans cannot peacefully coexist with wildlife" become rants/rages with personal attacks. :shock:

Then again I have 5 siblings that often cannot see things my way. :lol: :roll: :lol:
 
ken_vandeburgt said:
On the other hand if you are going to go armed...
503_300pxCarl_Gustaf__recoilless_rifle_1.jpg


Go large or go home.
Click to expand...
Now THAT'S what I'm talking about! and it would fit well in my skin boat with the floatation bag removed! Who needs floatation anyway?
Seriously, though, I have nothing against firearms, or those who feel the need for them for security against the wildlife whose territory they are encroaching upon. I've never had an encounter with wild animals go sour to the point that I felt a firearm would be prudent, or necessary, though some of my encounters with humans have not been so cordial. My wife has joined me in my appreciation of wildlife, having had a rather pleasant visit with a black bear (from about 30') a couple of years ago, while camping in Pennsylvania.
 
I don't claim to know, but I wonder if there is a correlation between those that go into the woods with a gun, and those that shouldn't be there. :shock:
 
It's all relative.

Do you kayak (the lesser of a canoer) in places that no one else ever goes? Are you often in a bear habitats where food is not plentiful? Do you tree plant in groups of ten or more?

Statistics mean nothing for this issue, most kayakers I know are the Broken Islands type, or Desolation Sound trippers. Not very likely places to have a bear problem.

Hunters are far more likely to have a problem, their outdoor activity takes them into game rich places where bears might also be looking and competing for food. As a rule, I dont ever worry too much about ocean bears, they can always feast at low tide and because I dont hunt, I actively avoid wildlife.
 
Monster, you've made exactly my point. Bears are not to be feared for the average (or even extreme) kayaker as long as the kayaker behaves properly and practices clean camping. Far more likely to run into them (bears, not kayakers!....well, maybe kayakers too :) ) if you are carrying on activities up in their habitat and that are likely to bring you into conflict with them. And even then, the chances of getting attacked and injured or killed are very, very low.
 
I think I can agree with most of that, although I'm not really sure about "clean camping"? If what you mean is leaving no trace of your presence, and absolutely nothing for animals to scrounge upon your departure, then count me in the club!

On the other hand, if you mean bear caching my food and cooking away from camp, I've only sometimes done the later and very rarely done the former.

Unlike kayakers, I often carry food barrels which are certainly not bear proof and despite being air tight, far from odor free I'm sure. I usually place my food barrels far from my tent, often under the canoe with my cleaned pots and pans on top. I guess my theory has always been that I'd rather be alerted in my tent to the presence of a bear by the sound falling pots and pans and my canoe being flipped back over than to have a bear silently climbing a tree to see if can get at my cache, possibly surprising me during a late night washroom trip.

Keep in mind that I'm always on the ocean, and for the most part, sea bears are not starving. If I were in the Rockies or the interior of BC, I think I would be caching my food and very far away from my camp.
 
Good points.

You could also hang pots and pans from a tree cache to be alerted when a bear tries to get your high hung food. Personally, I'd rather not be bothered with the noise, but that's just me.

*****
 
Does anyone know if a fiberglass kayak is strong enough to withstand a bear be it black, brown, or white (polar)? I usually store my groceries in the kayak where the mice can't get at it.

In Kluane Park something spent an hour or so kicking around a fiberglass canister designed to be bear proof. (I figured a grizzly by the muddy footprint on it) Meant to be carried in a pack, it wasn't any stronger than a kayak shell.

I did have an average size black unsuccessfully try to get into the forward hatch whilst on Nootka Island. And that was while my food was hanging in a tree.
 
ken_vandeburgt said:
Does anyone know if a fiberglass kayak is strong enough to withstand a bear be it black, brown, or white (polar)? I usually store my groceries in the kayak where the mice can't get at it.
Click to expand...
No way. A bear can easily pound its way through the average FG kayak shell.
 
No way. A bear can easily pound its way through the average FG kayak shell.
Click to expand...

Do you have some reference or is this based on experience or is this just an opinion?

The only reference I have is Hutchinson's guide to Sea Kayaking 2nd ed where he states personal experience with a bear ripping off a kayak hatch to get at chocolate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top