Can a given kayak design actually be scaled up or down?

I bet if you really wanted one and called Nimbus they probably would make it. Both kayaks are listed on their (somewhat dated looking) website.
 
Sometimes, it just seems to me like there is a bit of serendipity, or the "Norns" spinning little bits of coincidence perhaps. Here is a link to a "FaceBlaster" Marketplace ad for a Nimbus Zoom that went up for sale last week, along with another newer model. The newer Zoom with bulkheads was listed for $750.00 and sold in two days the one in the link for $450.00. The blue one in the link, is very early, an old school model pre-bulkheads with the small circular hatch in the front deck meant to allow you to reach in and pull gear bags from the prow. I saw the listing the day they were posted and was ohhhh soooo tempted to acquire one, my wife was even on the coast handy by. But I am not supposed to be buying more boats, sigh...

This is the first time ever that I have seen a Zoom for sale. I have only ever known, and paddled with one person, who paddled a zoom as his expedition boat. He is, or was an avid open ocean surf ski paddler and racer. But when he went on kayak trips, he paddled a zoom.

With respect to contacting Nimbus and ordering a new boat, perhaps, but Nimbus is only building a very small number of boats each year now, almost all custom order, and the last time I checked, they are booked two years in advance. Oceaneer, if he sees this, can probably update us if I have it wrong.

T'is my fondest wish, that like what happened with Sterling Kayaks, Nimbus will be passed on to a keen new owner who wishes to carry on the line when Steve Schleicher is ready to retire. Like Sterling Kayaks, I believe there is a niche market for Nimbus boats that would keep a small craftsman operator well rewarded for continuing to produce this famous and popular line of kayaks.

Just for further reference, and further to Scotts original question, here is a link to a very interesting article in Paddling Magazine about Sterling Kayaks after their fire in 2012. There is a significant amount of information on how the Sterling line of kayaks came to be from a design perspective.

Sterling Kayaks: Forged in Flames

The Sterling Timeline

Now that I am warmed up on the topic of small designers, worthy of having their lines carried on, it comes to mind, that somethng similar happened in the UK, when Mike Nelson, owner and designer of "Northshore Sea Kayaks" retired after about 40 years of designing and building wonderful kayaks. Valley Sea Kayaks acquired full rights to the Northshore boats and production rights and continues the line on as a boutique and separate entity of Valley.

IMG_2491.jpeg


An image of my own wee Northshore Ocean 17 on a winters day. A modern, but unique design that is well worth saving.

Cheers, Rick
 
Agreed Rick re: hoping that small boatbuilders will find someone to carry on the torch. At a minimum, I'd say to them "please PLEASE find a safe place to store the molds—don't just throw them out in a pasture on sawhorses (which I've seen done before) and let them rot. Molds for great boats represent a huge investment in time and design. Granted, you can make a new one from an existing boat, but it's a pain the a$$.
 
"PLEASE find a safe place to store the molds"
Storing a design is less of an issue nowadays: it's just a file. From that a boat or mold/mould can be readily built or manufactured by various means.
And as far as the wide range of designs out there, there exist a few idiots out there who amass schematic representatives of various boat designs for personal inquisitiveness.
The please, please part requires redundant backups. . . . learned from bitter experience.

It's interesting to see and wonder about the close interaction between say Sterling and Nimbus [Ice Kap Farvel for eg] and the help that Henry from CD gave to Sterling after the fire. Sort of heart-warming in spite of the obvious competition.
 
SWriverstone said:
"please PLEASE find a safe place to store the molds—don't just throw them out in a pasture on sawhorses (which I've seen done before) and let them rot. Molds for great boats represent a huge investment in time and design. Granted, you can make a new one from an existing boat, but it's a pain the a$$.
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I'd go in a different direction and encourage them to safeguard the plug. That's the original shape from which the molds are made. Over time, and with every boat pulled out of it, a mold will slowly change shape. A great example of that being the Nordkapp, which has a few different permutations over the years as the mold gradually relaxed.

If I recall they ended up finding one of the very original Nordkapps and making a mold off of that, which gave them a new mold with the 'correct' old dimensions.

Though as Mick says, nowadays many manufacturers are using a CAD file as the first step to making a mold, so keeping the plug is less critical.
 
I'd go in a different direction and encourage them to safeguard the plug. That's the original shape from which the molds are made. Over time, and with every boat pulled out of it, a mold will slowly change shape. A great example of that being the Nordkapp, which has a few different permutations over the years as the mold gradually relaxed.

If I recall they ended up finding one of the very original Nordkapps and making a mold off of that, which gave them a new mold with the 'correct' old dimensions.
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Exactly, a plug will warp with age and use. The boat to which Pascal is referring is Nordkapp Førti released in 2015, as a 40th anniversary edition. It was created with a new plug made from one of the very early Nordkapp boats that Valley went on a search to find.

My sister in law still has one of the first two Nordkapps imported into Canada in about 1982. The Førti is the same boat from the new plug.
 
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Yes to saving the plug too! I admit I'm out of the modern loop with regard to boatbuilding...but I'm assuming (perhaps mistakenly) that if all you have is a CAD file, then you have to make a plug with a giant 3D printer, correct? This seems like pretty expensive technology for small boatbuilders to have? (Or is there some other way to get a plug from a file?)

I used to build whitewater slalom boats...and back in the day (the 1980s) we made plugs from existing boats and there were no devices or other machinery involved at all. Entirely new (and successful) boats were designed (not by me but guys I trained with) from nothing more than piling bondo and putty onto a boat and shaving and sanding it all over—just eyeballing all the shapes and angles. (And occasionally measuring with a ruler, LOL.) Boats that won world championships were made this way! (Not saying this is the best way—a big 3D printer would be a heck of a lot easier!)
 
It's interesting to see and wonder about the close interaction between say Sterling and Nimbus [Ice Kap Farvel for eg] and the help that Henry from CD gave to Sterling after the fire. Sort of heart-warming in spite of the obvious competition.
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Slightly off topic, but further to the concern that many of the old school designers and manufacturers are disappearing. We have discussed the fact that Sterling Kayaks has a new owner, Valley Kayaks has kept Northshore going as a boutique brand; and now I just came across this heartening piece of old school design survival news:

Wenonah Sells Current Designs

Current Designs Kayaks: Custom Kayaks and New Parent Company

Current Designs has changed hands once again. Founded in the late 1970s by Brian Henry on Vancouver Island, the brand was then acquired by Minnesota’s Wenonah Canoes in 1999. Wenonah expanded the brand from its niche producing coastal touring kayaks to all manner of kayaks, including those suited to recreational pursuits, ocean play and light touring. The lineup that Sanborn will be building includes the venerable old Solstice and Equinox models, which are vintage west coast touring designs, and the Danish skeg boat designs, by Jesper Kromann-Andersen; the Prana, Karla and Sisu. So the best of both the American touring designs and the Danish ones. I have paddled many Current Designs boats, and am stoked that their proven quality designs will still be produced, though I have never owned one.

The company also admits that the purchase will involve new initiatives, including shuttering its retail base. “Bringing Current Designs into our shop is going to bring with it a few major changes,” it says. “The first is that we’re going to move to a direct-to-customer sales model.
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Sanborn is a much smaller boutique type company and though you will have to order from them, at least the quality and designs of this quality line will still be there for those with the knowledge and hankering to own one.

Rick
 
SalishSeaNior said:
Sanborn is a much smaller boutique type company and though you will have to order from them, at least the quality and designs of this quality line will still be there for those with the knowledge and hankering to own one.
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It would be interesting to hear from somebody who has ordered a kayak from Sanborn.
Their premises seem pretty modest for a company offering 17 different CD models + at least 20 canoe models.
I wonder how many boats they are cranking out, and what the quality is like.
Sanborn:
Sanborn Current Designs.JPG
 
One also has to wonder where their market will come from. Since they don’t sell through dealers, there’s no way to test paddle one of their boats unless one knows someone with one or lives within driving distance of their factory. I sure wouldn’t spend $4000 - $6000 on a boat I hadn’t tested.
 
I sure wouldn’t spend $4000 - $6000 on a boat I hadn’t tested.
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True, but the Current Designs line has been around for a long time and the designs are proven. I have paddled many Current Designs boats, and though the north American designs are not my personal cup of tea, they are popular and well designed kayaks. I have quite a few friends who own, paddle and love them.

There will always be a few devoted kayak enthusiasts who have the desire and money to purchase a high quality boat, of proven design heritage, from a boutique builder. Jesper Kroman-Anderson is a renowned kayak designer who has collaborated with Current Designs, as well as Norse and Zegal to produce performance oriented Danish style ocean kayaks. So the pedigree of the boats is solid. I am just glad that these kayaks will still be built and available, and you might be able to try one owned by a friend, or perhaps a rental, before you order one. Lots still out there.

If I was still in the market for a play boat, that I could also tour in, the Prana would be near the top of my pick list. The Current Designs kayaks are still available in quite a few shops in BC as well, and perhaps those outlets might continue to order and stock a few, who knows? Comox Valley Kayaks has been doing just that with Nimbus boats for a while now. These kayaks are not cheap, but they are still in demand.

Ocean kayaking, much like cycling and skiing are expensive sports, in all three of those sports, the "more well off enthusiasts" are often willing to pay a lot for top end equipment. I know cycling fanatics who own bikes that cost in excess of $10,000.00. Ocean kayaking just doesn't have the fan base and number of hard core enthusiasts to support that kind of market at a mass production level.

The North American design type boats are all getting rarer and harder to come by, because they cannot be successfully mass marketed due to a limited market, and that is in my view a shame. Sterling Kayaks, Rainforest Designs (Nimbus), Atlantis, and Impex kayaks are all currently in that niche market slot. Seaward, Necky, Mariner and Seda are for all intents and purposes now defunct. Eddyline and Delta are still going, but cater to less performance oriented, mostly recreational paddling folk. Borreal Design is going strong, but even with them, their composite sea kayaks are listed as "special order".

Right now, there seems to be a glut of used kayaks on the market, but as they age and get beat up, any we own that are well kept and remain in good condition may become sought after in the not too distant future. I have buffed, polished, primped, and given some love to all of my boats in the past few months. I guess that makes me a collector and an enthusiast! Just say'in?!?

Cheers, Rick
 
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SalishSeaNior said:
There will always be a few devoted kayak enthusiasts who have the desire and money to purchase a high quality boat, of proven design heritage, from a boutique builder. Jesper Kroman-Anderson is a renowned kayak designer who has collaborated with Current Designs, as well as Norse and Zegal to produce performance oriented Danish style ocean kayaks. So the pedigree of the boats is solid. I am just glad that these kayaks will still be built and available, and you might be able to try one owned by a friend, or perhaps a rental, before you order one. Lots still out there.
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Like @ELS, I'd want to see the kayak from an unproven builder 'up close' before buying. It takes more than the mold and layup schedule to produce an excellent boat, and I doubt that the craftspeople who produced the boats that built the reputation of Current Designs are working at Sanborn Canoe.
So, I wouldn't order a CD boat from Sanborn, based on paddling "the same boat" that was built 10 years ago.
There were problems with some Current Designs boats even before the moves of the past few years.
 
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Well said John. I haven't seen one of the Sanborn CD kayaks up close but have heard positive reports.
When they stopped supplying retailers and moved to a direct order model I wondered how that would go over.

I have a few manufacturers that is consider buying from sight unseen, but that's mostly because they produce models that I've heard good things about that are exceedingly uncommon to actually see. I can see someone doing the same so they can get a specific CD kayak.
I wonder how the warranty process would work when a defective product slips through. It's so much nicer (for a customer) having that be the problem of your friendly local paddling shop.
 
SalishSeaNior said:
Sometimes, it just seems to me like there is a bit of serendipity, or the "Norns" spinning little bits of coincidence perhaps. Here is a link to a "FaceBlaster" Marketplace ad for a Nimbus Zoom that went up for sale last week, along with another newer model. The newer Zoom with bulkheads was listed for $750.00 and sold in two days the one in the link for $450.00. The blue one in the link, is very early, an old school model pre-bulkheads with the small circular hatch in the front deck meant to allow you to reach in and pull gear bags from the prow. I saw the listing the day they were posted and was ohhhh soooo tempted to acquire one, my wife was even on the coast handy by. But I am not supposed to be buying more boats, sigh...

This is the first time ever that I have seen a Zoom for sale. I have only ever known, and paddled with one person, who paddled a zoom as his expedition boat. He is, or was an avid open ocean surf ski paddler and racer. But when he went on kayak trips, he paddled a zoom.

With respect to contacting Nimbus and ordering a new boat, perhaps, but Nimbus is only building a very small number of boats each year now, almost all custom order, and the last time I checked, they are booked two years in advance. Oceaneer, if he sees this, can probably update us if I have it wrong.

T'is my fondest wish, that like what happened with Sterling Kayaks, Nimbus will be passed on to a keen new owner who wishes to carry on the line when Steve Schleicher is ready to retire. Like Sterling Kayaks, I believe there is a niche market for Nimbus boats that would keep a small craftsman operator well rewarded for continuing to produce this famous and popular line of kayaks.

Just for further reference, and further to Scotts original question, here is a link to a very interesting article in Paddling Magazine about Sterling Kayaks after their fire in 2012. There is a significant amount of information on how the Sterling line of kayaks came to be from a design perspective.

Sterling Kayaks: Forged in Flames

The Sterling Timeline

Now that I am warmed up on the topic of small designers, worthy of having their lines carried on, it comes to mind, that somethng similar happened in the UK, when Mike Nelson, owner and designer of "Northshore Sea Kayaks" retired after about 40 years of designing and building wonderful kayaks. Valley Sea Kayaks acquired full rights to the Northshore boats and production rights and continues the line on as a boutique and separate entity of Valley.

View attachment 18570

An image of my own wee Northshore Ocean 17 on a winters day. A modern, but unique design that is well worth saving.

Cheers, Rick
Click to expand...
Nimbus is building boats, I inquired last week and he's ready to start production this Spring.
 
I heard that the Mariner Elan evolved from the Mariner Express by using the same hull while lowering the deck. It may be that other changes were made. John Abercrombie, what do you know about this evolution?
 
In the world of decked whitewater kayaks and C-1s that were hand-built, people routinely scale up/down a given boat simply by adding a half-inch to the hull or subtracting a quarter-inch to the deck. Small additions or subtractions like these could make big differences in the boat's volume (or at least "big" in terms of the boat's handling for a given paddler's weight).
 
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