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classifying skill levels

nootka

Paddler
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
1,768
Location
Campbell River
I belong to 2 paddle clubs. They have vastly different definitions of what skills an "intermediate" paddler has (ditto for other levels).
To reduce confusion, I think of skill levels as pertaining to the SKGABC Coastal Water Classification
http://www.skgabc.com/water-classifications.php
ie can you paddle class 1 2 3 or 4 water, and even more to the point, can you solo paddle that class.

One can find descriptions of each class at the above link, and one can find Paddle Canada descriptions at
https://www.paddlecanada.com/pdf/sk_pro ... skills.pdf
https://www.paddlecanada.com/pdf/sk_pro ... skills.pdf
https://www.paddlecanada.com/pdf/sk_pro ... skills.pdf
https://www.paddlecanada.com/pdf/sk_pro ... skills.pdf

Level 4 (SKGABC vs PC) looks similar to me, but I don't think they were set up to be exactly the same.
Nonetheless, if a paddler has PC level 4 certification, I expect they are likely to have the skills needed for class 4 water.
Ditto for PC level 3, and probably ditto for PC level 2.

Any comments from SKGABC and/or Paddle Canada?

If I'm leading a trip, and I say it's for intermediate paddlers, don't be surprised if I also state that means SKGABC class 3 water.
 
Nootka, Paddle Canada is revising its curricula. One of the recommendations is to tie the skill levels directly to the water classification levels (using the same classification scheme as SKGABC). See here:

https://www.paddlecanada.com/1500-sea-k ... mbers.html

FYI, Class 3 waters are considered 'advanced' in both the Paddle Canada progression and, implicitly, in the SKGABC classification scheme. If you want to keep your language consistent with either of those programs, you would not call a Class 3 trip 'intermediate'.

Cheers,
Andrew
 
Thanks for that correction Andrew.
Unfortunately, it appears PC/SKGABC levels 3 & 4 are both referred to as advanced. (or at least require advanced paddling skills)

Level-3 Skills Short description
Advanced paddling skills, group management, and leadership during rough water overnight touring.


Level-4 Skills Short description
Advanced paddling skills, group management, and leadership during a multi-day expedition in a rough water environment.


So this PC-SKGABC alignment will be an improvement, but IMHO is incomplete.

Here's an excerpt from a small paddle club:

Our Intermediate Level
This level increases physical fitness even more to a 4 hour non-stop paddle. Most likely not to happen
but the ability and strength are present. Open water designed kayak or canoe, 14 ft minimum with
rudder or skeg and safety deck lines. Compass and applicable chart should be carried. Wet exit and
ability to self rescue
Paddles include crossings and waters were moderate sea conditions can be expected. such as to
be able to Example is Little Bear Bay to Blind Channel, Ken Forde to Cape Mudge.
Equivalent skills to: Paddle Canada Level 1 Sea Kayaking Skills

Experienced - limited exposed coast ie Nutchatlitz Area or Kyuquot Sound
Skilled - open exposed coast ie Nutchatlitz to Kyuquot Sound
Extreme - ie Seymour Narrows at full bore, rounding Cape Scott

These level descriptions fit in with the water classification maps, but the level names? Yuk.
I'm not going to call myself an extreme paddler. Let's save that label for long boats at Okisollo above 10 knots.
(and nobody paddles Seymour Narrows at 16 knots - yet)

Class 0
Non-challenging protected waters with limited wind effect, little or no current, easy landings, and ready access to land-based assistance. Wind calm to rippled (< 8 knots).

Class 1
Non-challenging waters with mild wind effect (0–11 knots), little or no current (0–0.5 knots), uninterrupted easy landing options, and ready access to land-based assistance. Sea state is calm to light chop.

Class 2
Moderately exposed coastline with frequent easy-landing opportunities and short crossings. Moderate potential wind effects (12–19 knots), surf of less than 1 meter and a combined sea state of less than 1 metre, gentle to moderate non-turbulent currents of less than 3 knots, and light surf beaches. Short delays in access to land-based assistance is expected.

Class 3
Exposed water, with more committing crossings, moderate to strong currents with turbulence (< 3 knots), moderate to strong wind effects (12–19 knots), ocean swells and a combined sea state near 1 meter with occasional rough sea state. Difficult but frequent landing opportunities, surf-beaches with surf up to 1 metre. Delays in access to land-based assistance is expected.

Class 4
Rugged and exposed coast with long committing crossings, strong turbulent currents (≥ 3 knots), strong wind effects (near 20 knots), large swells with a combined sea state 1 metre or more with a moderate to rough sea state, exposed surf beaches (≥ 1 metre), infrequent and sometimes difficult landings which present significant challenges for individual safety and group management. Significant delays in access to land-based assistance can be expected.
http://www.paddlecanada.com/1500-sea-ka ... ml#class-0
 
Yes, you've hit upon one area of confusion that is currently being addressed: if Level 3 and Level 4 are both "advanced" skill levels, what exactly is the difference between them? That is exactly the question being asked right now as part of the curriciulum update.

I do think there is a difference between Class 3 and 4 waters, so the skill levels should reflect that. But often the skill difference is in soft skills, such as weather interpretation, seamanship, group management, and the ability to keep calm.

Cheers,
Andrew
 
True, True.
IMHO some of those "soft" skills may be more important than some of the "hard" skills ie draw strokes.
I'd include stamina and 'getting up early' on your list ;-)

What is being called "advanced" now (class 3 waters) may have been advanced 20 years ago, and may be advanced to rec boaters, but I would consider it to be routine for any semi-serious sea kayaker. Even the formidable Brooks Peninsula is no longer a big deal.
The proliferation of drysuits and nimble boats has had a positive impact on attitudes and skill levels.

How much of a gap should there be "extreme" and "advanced" ?
Keeping an eye on the future, what counts as class 5 waters?
Let's not forget that today's extreme (ie endos) may be somewhat commonplace in 20 years.

After all, attitudes & abilities change:
1998: No amount of skill --- rolling, bracing or paddling -- will guarantee you a safe passage through any of the region's rapids. Page 122, Chapter 8 Discovery Islands, Kayak Routes of the Pacific Northwest, Peter McGee
2007: Naturally, any run of the [Seymour] narrows is for advanced kayakers only who are comfortable with -- or better yet, enjoy -- rips and turbulence. Page 404, The Wild Coast 3, John Kimantas.
2015: In the narrows itself, you will have to make some route decisions. Generally you want to avoid boils and whirlpools. No matter the current speed, you can try to choose a path that follows the fastest currents. page 32, Coast & Kayak, Spring 2015
2016: We run an avanced Skook course for advanced paddlers and an Intro to Skook course for intermediate paddlers. http://www.skils.ca/advanced-currents.html

It has frequently been noticed that all mountains appear doomed to pass through the three stages: An inaccessible peak - The most difficult ascent in the Alps - An easy day ...
Albert Frederick Mummery
 
These hierarchical systems are atttractive and very useful as a matrix for a rough sorting of paddlers by "skill level."

As AM and Nootka acknowledge, however, some of the soft skills are not hierarchical in nature or need. To wit, they are critical components of go / no go decision making, as a start.

It might be more functional to separate them from the skills based scheme and make a separate ladder, to be reviewed each time someone goes up for the next skills level, as a way of emphasizing that in many situations judgment trumps skills.
 
Astoriadave said:
Peter-CKM said:
Here is the breakdown of the ACA level system, from a book which Roger Schumann just published:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4637993/ACA-SkillLv&SeaConditions.23.jpg

They don't try to classify by intermediate, advanced, etc., but by water conditions and skills/experience needed.
Peter, is that graphic intact? I see levels of navigational skills, but nothing about strokes, self rescues, etc.

Yup, that is what was there. Graphic doesn't talk about skills needed, so I guess my comment about skills/experience needed wasn't right. Sorry about that.
 
This classification stuff certainly sounds like a box of square pegs and a series of round holes. We have all seen the guy that has invested in every certification struggle with a sea state and we have seen the old guy that just rocks.

Nootka, if was putting it out as a group leader, knowing that I would be paddling with people that I have never met before, I might advertise the event with the expected sea conditions, expected minimum pace of the group and ask the participants to perform an honest self-assessment before signing up. I would also welcome those that may be slightly challenged by the expected seas and pace but are mentally eager for the experience.

Cheers,
 
mstoc.co said:
This classification stuff certainly sounds like a box of square pegs and a series of round holes. We have all seen the guy that has invested in every certification struggle with a sea state and we have seen the old guy that just rocks.

There certainly is some truth to what you say, but more often I have seen the opposite: people showing up to trips who have nowhere near the skill or knowledge to participate. That's why saying "PC Level 3 or equivalent skills required" is an excellent way to do an initial vetting.

Certification means that someone else has decided how good your skills are. We are often inaccurate when describing our own levels.

I'm dealing with this exact same thing now in a different sport - sailing. I'm working with a local race organization to get young sailors on the water in solo boats. Initially, we invited any youth who could "skipper a boat solo" to enter. Not good: the kids were terrible at assessing their own skills. Now we are explicit: CanSail 2 or higher required.

So yes, I take your point that the certification process can sometimes seem like gathering Brownie points, but it does set benchmarks that allow better communication between trip organizers and participants. Of course this is especially helpful in club settings or any time you need to organize an event for larger groups of people you don't know. For personal paddling, it's much less relevant.

Cheers,
Andrew
 
AM said:
Certification means that someone else has decided how good your skills are.
This all assumes there are consistent standards in evaluation.
There are plenty of 'stories around' about that.
One thing I like about the BCU standards is that (so I've been told) the 'coach' is not the evaluator. It doesn't eliminate the chances of instructors 'scratching each others backs', but it does recognize the temptation to 'give the customer the paperwork if they pay the money and show up and make a good effort'.

Rating paddling area difficulty is tricky since it's so dependent on conditions.
Haven't the WW folks addressed this with difficulty and flow levels?

Looking at climbing- a sport with much higher committment and danger than kayaking, and no certification for non-instructors, could be useful- or show how complicated rating systems can become.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(climbing)
 
Looking at climbing- a sport with much higher committment and danger than kayaking, and no certification for non-instructors, could be useful- or show how complicated rating systems can become.
One good thing about climbing is that bullshitters don't last long. It quickly becomes obvious if you can't climb what you spray you can.

Sea kayaking is more like ice climbing. Conditions change from day to day, but the basic difficulty remains about the same. Any ice climb might at some time be easier than its grade, but if you climb it a few times, you are certain to average out at normal conditions hence grade.
 
mystoc.co wrote: Nootka, if was putting it out as a group leader, knowing that I would be paddling with people that I have never met before, I might advertise the event with the expected sea conditions, expected minimum pace of the group and ask the participants to perform an honest self-assessment before signing up. I would also welcome those that may be slightly challenged by the expected seas and pace but are mentally eager for the experience.

This is a good attitude for a leader of an all comers group ... and if backstopped with a secondary leader (or two) to shepherd the odd paddler or two not up to the task back to tamer waters, separate from the main group, likely very workable. Leading trips in the mtns, whether longer XC skiing excursions, or straightforward glacier ascents, this worked well the two or three times I had to send someone back to easier terrain. I think it might work. Mind, we once caught a ton of s#%¥t from a client we turned back to high camp ... who later sent us an apologetic letter of thanks after his medical condition was diagnosed.

It is inherently more difficult to "stop" and reassess a paddler than it is a climber, so that strategies that work in the mtns may be useless on the water. Wind, current, waves ... all temporal variables. I quit participating in all comers paddles some 10 years ago. Too damn frustrating.
 
nootka said:
Looking at climbing- a sport with much higher committment and danger than kayaking, and no certification for non-instructors, could be useful- or show how complicated rating systems can become.
One good thing about climbing is that bullshitters don't last long. It quickly becomes obvious if you can't climb what you say you can.

Sea kayaking is more like ice climbing. Conditions change from day to day, but the basic difficulty remains about the same. Any ice climb might at some time be easier than its grade, but if you climb it a few times, you are certain to average out at normal conditions hence grade.
Nootka nailed this. Nobody can conceal his inability to climb a higher grade jam crack, for example. And nobody I know would be willing to keep on going up with a millstone like that along ... mainly because you can rap off and go home. In paddling, going "back" may be even more risky than continuing, if you find out someone is in over his head. Rarely is that the case for recreational, intermediate climbs.

The critical difference is that: Paddling is more dangerous than it looks; climbing looks more dangerous than it is.
 
Dave, the word 'spray' was deliberate.

Spray is a derogatory term for a monologue wherein an individual describes his or her climbing in an arrogant, narcissistic and self-promoting manner. Those who engage in spray are usually trying to elevate themselves and their egos above whomever they are talking to.

http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2009/04 ... spray.html


Paddling is more dangerous than it looks; climbing looks more dangerous than it is
that's a good one
 
nootka said:
oh yeah
he climb the Nose?
Yup. Second attempt. Wish I had one tenth his talent. Technology has improved a lot since my day, but so have the standards people climb today. Another world. We were still bashing iron into cracks when I started. And cutting steps on steep glaciers. Jim Whittaker fitted me to my first set of crampons, just a few years after he climbed Everest. We knew so little.
 
Technology has improved a lot since my day, but so have the standards people paddle today.
this applies too

so you need an open ended number system, or you redefine terms like "advanced"
or you end up with a fubar system like the old Brit "hard very severe"

Moderate, Difficult, Hard Difficult, Very Difficult, Hard Very Difficult, Severe, Hard Severe, Very Severe, Hard Very Severe and Extremely Severe

What's leading edge in sea kayaking?
bigger surf
tide races at faster currents
longer crossings
paddling around continents
racing around Vancouver Island faster & faster
harder rolls
 
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