CLC Kayak Sail Rig build

Discussion in 'Boat and Accessory Building' started by keabird, Jul 31, 2008.

  1. keabird

    keabird Paddler

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    Luckily, the piece that broke off from the stern of my boat fit nicely back onto the boat. Most of the wood from inside the break has been replaced with thickened epoxy, yet it still mostly looks like wood from the outside. I wrapped a few pieces of fiberglass around the damaged area and onto the hull a few inches. Hopefully this will give me enough strength.

    If the section re-breaks my plan is to build a third rudder that follows the shape of the stern (just like a more traditional sailboat). I will attach it using gudgeon and pintles which will spread the strain. I hope this will not be needed, but that is my backup plan. I thought of building some kind of internal rudder that would kick up into a slot in the stern, but the rudder size I need to turn this boat while sailing would necessitate mounting the thing a few feet forward, pretty much halving my storage capacity. Not to mention the giant hole that I would have to cut in the bottom of my boat.

    Here's a couple of photos of the repair taken before sanding and varnishing. You can see that the repair took place outside, as I have lost my shop space. Thank goodness it is still warm enough for the epoxy to cure.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  2. DarenN

    DarenN Paddler

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    Casey, it's my opinion that you need a bigger bracket to mount to the boat for your rudder. did you carve a block to fit in the hull per Joe's directions? end pour? if it was me i'd do an end pour even over the carved block, then make a new bracket that extends farther onto the hull and mounts through the block/pour. this will give you far more bearing surface to spread the load. i think that even with the extra 'glass you're asking a bit much of your stem strips.

    Daren.......
     
  3. keabird

    keabird Paddler

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    I agree with you Daren about the bigger bracket. Unfortunately I have no idea where to go to get one. I got my current one pre-made from Pygmy. They have them made to go with a couple of their boat models. If anyone has an idea of where I can get a more appropriate bracket PLEASE let me know. I absolutely would not be able to fabricate one myself, as I have no metal working knowledge.

    Also, FYI my boat has a full, solid endpour that a larger bracket would be able to bite into.
     
  4. DarenN

    DarenN Paddler

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    you need to find a metal working/welding shop that does small projects.

    Daren.......
     
  5. Mark_Schilling

    Mark_Schilling Paddler

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    FWIW I like Dave's mortice and tenon idea. You could incorporate this idea into a new design of home-built rudder system. It would allow a good, strong fit (increasing the load over a larger area, internal to the hull), and it could be designed and fashioned with a very clean look - no big, ugly external brackets clamping the outside of the hull.
     
  6. Oldpro

    Oldpro Paddler

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    Rudder possibilities

    Gudgeon and pintle pairs would still bring all the loads to the mounting points of the gudgeons which would need to be beefy. How about a rudder on each of the amas linked by a transverse bar? Doesn't this work for small sailing cats?
     
  7. keabird

    keabird Paddler

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    I think the dual rudder idea would work if this were a catamaran, however with the huge central hull, the rudder needs to be in the center I am thinking.

    Also, while I really like dave's mortice and tenon idea I have only the vaguest idea of what is involved with that. Also, any work on the inside of the stern would have to be done either by a cat or a person with 6 foot long arms and periscope eyes. If I were to do it, I would literally have to cut a section of the deck of to get in there.

    I think the best thing will be to try to find a way to get a bracket with longer arms so they reach past the tip of the stem onto the end pour.
     
  8. keabird

    keabird Paddler

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    Ok, I found something interesting I thought I would run by the crowd here. I found this on the CLC website:

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    It says this is to be used with kayaks that have a vertical stern, but it looks to me that it could be used on my boat if those side arms were long enough.
     
  9. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Kea, that looks way better than the Pygmy bracket. If you through-bolt side to side, it should be on there forever.
     
  10. keabird

    keabird Paddler

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    So after reattaching the bit of stern that broke off my boat, I turned around yesterday and sawed it off. This allowed my new rudder bracket to have enough bite on the stern. It is attached with 2 screws and two through bolts. The bolts go through the end pour of the boat. If this isn't strong enough I don't know what is!


    [​IMG]
     
  11. keabird

    keabird Paddler

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    I finally was able to take my boat out yesterday and not have to paddle back in! The wind was blowing 10 to 15 knots and I was having fun. At one point I was paralleling a full sized yacht under sail and was keeping up pretty good. I have found that the kayak steers well, but needs a few paddle strokes to complete a tack. It just loses too much headway when turning into the wind.

    The only problem I have now is that the new rudder bracket now is not quite strong enough. I noticed that the bottom pieces were bending depending on which way the swells were coming from. I am thinking that thicker pieces of metal are required or that some sort of stiffener needs to be welded on. Any thoughts?

    Heres a view from the cockpit. I wil be posting a link to a video of my sail yesterday as soon as I get it online.


    [​IMG]
     
  12. keabird

    keabird Paddler

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  13. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    A little more slack in the starboard jibsheet might help so that the jib can be pulled back beside the main with the port jibsheet and viceversa. It just might be that the lower part of the jib is catching more air than it should.
     
  14. keabird

    keabird Paddler

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    After I shot the photo and the video I got the jib sheets sorted out and set them how you suggested. The boat seemed to sail much better with the jib set right, but it still needed a little help while tacking, and of course the rudder bracket was still bending. I think the problem comes from having such a long straight-tracking hull. It just needs a ton of rudder to get it to turn which means a ton of pressure on the rudder.

    On a different note: DarenN was wondering how well she would sail without the leeboard. I tried it out with the leeboard both up and down on saturday and I really couldn't tell a difference in the leeway. I don't have a GPS so I can't say for sure, but it seemed like if I pointed the boat the way I wanted to go, I didn't really have to make any corrections except to counter the push of some of the bigger swells. I think the deep v shape of the amas acted as a downwind keel to reduce the leeway.

    Interestingly the boat did seem to be a little easier to steer going downwind with the leeboard up.
     
  15. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    a quick semi fix might be to put filler in the whole 'triangle' of the lower bracket and the yak (the whole area from pivothole to back of yak and betw the 2 lower arms). That way all transverse loads will become more tension and compression loads on the bracket arms rather than bending loads. It'll help a bit.

    and if your yak is sailing semi-ok without the lee board, it makes sense to test it out carefully and just maybe dispense with it.
     
  16. steele

    steele Paddler

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    I believe most multihull sailboats have trouble tacking. Even large cruising catamarans (40 ft +) sometimes have to back-wind the jib to push the bow through the wind. It looks like you are really getting the rig sorted out. One option, which you may have thought of, in regared to your rudder problems is to find a solution in the sailing hardware industry rather than kayak sources. Most small sailboats have stainless rudder mounts that seem more substantial than the kayak ones. Perhaps they could be modified to work in your case. Have fun!
     
  17. woodensoul

    woodensoul Paddler

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    As Steele has suggested, backwind the jib to help drive the bow around. What this means is go into your tack with the jib still set. Make sure you can uncleat it quickly. As you turn into the wind it should catch the wind on the back side and help drive the bow around. As you get 3/4 of the way through your tack, then pull it to the leeward side, it should now catch air and start driving the boat forward. This is a bit of a timing thing and will get better with practice. Multi hull boats don't point upwind as well as mono hulls which means they have farther to go through the wind to complete a tack.

    In terms of your rudder mount, I am with Daren. Go to a local metal fab shop and get them to make something up for you. Talk to them and maybe scrounge up the material yourself if you catch them at the right time it may not be too expensive. I don't think your going to find somehting off the shelf that is going to fit nicely with your hull shape. Your other option is to start experimenting with layering up composites. To get the strength you need it won't be small...

    Looking forward to more video. Very cool!

    ws
     
  18. steele

    steele Paddler

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    I was at fisheries supply in the Freemont area of Seattle today looking at hose (long story), and stopped by the sailboat section. They did not have what you need, but it got me thinking. I believe what you need is a second pindle on your rudder mounted lower than your current mount, which you could keep. Some thing like this might work. http://schaeferhardware.com//detail.aspx?ID=785
    It would have to be lengthened, but having 2 mounting points would help deal with the forces on the rudder, paritcularly if you ditch the leeboard. Without the leeboard the forces on the rudder increase, even on a strait run. This would get your rudder set up close to that of a traditional sailboat.
    As a side note there was a very good looking yak from redfish sitting in the lobby of the store. It had an amazining finish and the best looking seat I have ever seen in a kayak. If you end up in the area it might be worth a look.
    Tom
     
  19. steele

    steele Paddler

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    So, it has been a long day and I got things reversed. The pindle could be bolted to the rudder you have without modification. It is the godgeon that attaches to the boat itself and would need to be lengthened or made from scratch. It looks like this, http://schaeferhardware.com//detail.aspx?ID=787. Since it is the simpler part, you might be able to do it for not much money. I will shut up now.
     
  20. keabird

    keabird Paddler

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    Tom,

    Thanks for the advice. I think having an extra pintle on the rudder would help a lot, but I still think the mount I have needs to be strengthened. I am thinking I am going to have to find a place that does metal work and have them fabricate something to reinforce the bracket.