Does a Tanker Moratorium have implications for kayaks

Discussion in 'General Paddling Discussions' started by ken_vandeburgt, Aug 19, 2008.

  1. jurgenk

    jurgenk Paddler

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    Ken V, as is so clear from the OP, you are obviously high-up in Exxon and living incognito on the island. Is there anything you can do about the high price of gas? Thank you for bringing up a interesting bit of debate, and I trust that you will remember some of us favorably when you are deciding in what communities you are to spend your petro billions. In Hazelton, where I live, there is massive unemployment and we could really use a refinery or the like, but I will understand if you are too busy writing clever bits of oil tanker propaganda for kayaking message boards to see to my request.

    Unless some of you know more than you are letting on, my take on the original debate is just as likely as yours. Cannot we at least discuss this with an air of civility over a cup of tea brewed on a Trangia?

    Brad
     
  2. jurgenk

    jurgenk Paddler

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    I see that I opened up a can of worms myself: I own no stock in Trangia, but to be completely transparent I purchased a minority share of Neufeld Exquisitely Crafted Small Wood-Burning Stoves (I advised Daren against the unwieldy company name but he is a delicate genius) during his recent IPO.

    Brad
     
  3. Ken B

    Ken B Paddler

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    jurgenk,
    Shows how much you know...Trangia can only brew Thai Tea :wink:

    Oh...and I have no connection financially to the tea business...though I do have some shares in Naaman Porcelain that makes tea pots...
    :roll:
     
  4. Redcedar

    Redcedar Paddler

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    Ah very good ! What about jurgenk b though or say someone in your immediate family?

    Perhaps we should all get together over a hot cuppa fair trade coffee brewed on a sustainable driftwood fire using Daren's made in BC stove. That would give us a chance to talk to each other openly , surrounded by the beauty of the BC coast.
     
  5. jurgenk

    jurgenk Paddler

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    That sounds like an excellent idea Redcedar and perhaps Ken can join us and supply the smores.

    Brad
     
  6. ken_vandeburgt

    ken_vandeburgt Paddler

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    Yes I am comparing apples to apples. We're talking about public trust doctrine.

    If you want to see what happens when public trust doctrine is eroded just look to the shoreline where most of the land is private. We all value the recreation and commercial opportunities that go with access to the shore. Here in BC we are losing a piece of that access everytime a piece of property goes up for sale. There are already places where you cannot access the sea without paying someone for something that is considered a basic human right in many other parts of the world. That is because there is no public trust doctrine in law regarding access to the sea at any level of government in Canada.

    Navigation is another form of public trust doctrine that ensures everyone has unrestricted passage for commerce and recreation on the sea. This bill represents the targetting of one group of ships everyone loves to loath. The bill opens the door for other groups to target other classes of vessel such as kayaks and therefore constitutes an attempt to violate the public trust.
     
  7. Ken B

    Ken B Paddler

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    Would you be so kind as to tell us if you stand to gain career wise and financially if we were to use 'Fair Trade Coffee' ?
    :wink:
     
  8. ken_vandeburgt

    ken_vandeburgt Paddler

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    Are we talking about coffee on which her majesty's taxes have been paid or no?

    Not enough uproar for a Boston style tea party.
     
  9. rider

    rider Paddler

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    Dude, i think it's safe to say that if crossing Johnstone Strait near Robson Bight poses a major issue, you got NO business circumnavigating vancouver island as you don't have the needed skill to handle it.
    Cruise ships are very predictable, move fairly slow and have a big enough time gap in between. Winds and currents in the Strait are also fairly predictable. Better luck with the next excuse.
    I ask you this. What makes your need to paddle anywhere you wish a priority over protection of nature?
     
  10. DarrenM

    DarrenM Paddler

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  11. ken_vandeburgt

    ken_vandeburgt Paddler

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    I do not so much view the ancient right of navigation as having a priority over protection of nature. I don't view my kayaking activities as an intrusion. Part of the appeal of kayaking is that allows me to be in natural surroundings. I like to think that I practice good no trace wilderness ethics.

    The evolutionary history of humans is part of nature too even if we often don't act like it.

    The freedom to be able to navigate anywhere on the sea is an ancient right. I am not going to let anyone arbitrarily take away or diminish the ancient freedoms that I enjoy now.

    That means standing up for the common rights of navigation on the sea that we share with other parts of the ocean going community. Such as oil tankers.
     
  12. rider

    rider Paddler

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    Yeah, key words are Ancient and Evolution.
    Ancient people had wooden ships typically under 100 feet long that transported cargo that was pretty well harmless in event of disaster,at a time when marine life enjoyed a largely unpolluted habitat with a lot of places to hide.
    It's like comparing a horse & carriage full of produce rolling through the countryside, to a tanker truck barreling down Highway 1. Things changed enough that i don't see why the same rules would apply.
     
  13. elmo

    elmo Paddler

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    Very well spoken Ken 8)

    One of the things that I dearly love about kayaking is the freedom to go where I please. It would be a shame to have to be legislated on the water - enough of that elsewhere in my life.

    Rider I'm with you 100% on the potential environmental disasters we are being force fed. I'm also glad we have a government that is willing to listen and at least try to make change, no matter how ineffective. As long as we keep trying, things will eventually change.

    Ken and Rider - Talk to your friends, or anyone who will listen with an open mind about your concerns. Change starts with an intimate conversation.

    I believe, and I'm glad others still do 8)
    daniel

    [​IMG]
     
  14. lance_randy

    lance_randy Paddler

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    Heh, I go to van for a couple days to see Tower Of Power at the PNE, come back and there's this witch hunt going on for ken_vandeburgt, complete with McCarthy overtones.

    It's like he's Frankenstein, and the angry villagers armed with torches and pitchforks, are banging down the castle walls! 8)

    for the record, I'm agree with Astoriadave, and his per usual well measured comments. It makes sense that you are a chemist, Dave.

    I don't think it is out of line to fear a Pandoras box type situation with this piece of legislation, what with politics, lobbyists, and special interest groups being what they are.

    I don't know if it is a good piece of legislation or not. If it serves to protect the delicate ecosystems in those areas, without increasing the cost I pay at the pump, and with no other weasily government b.s. sneaking in after, that would affect me as a kayaker, or a boater for that matter, then I'm all for it.

    People get easily rilled, and bent out of shape when it comes to these matters, and I think I can understand why.

    I've had some of the best times of my life being out on the water, in nature. If I ever have kids, I'd like to see them have those same opportunities, and that goes for other peoples kids too. I'm sure we all feel this way, more or less. It makes me feel terrible inside to see it get all crudded up, like what happened with the Valdes, or allot of the clear cuts around van isle. Heck, I was even arrested at Clayoquot Sound, because I thought, and still think, that it's worth saving.

    That said, I would personally strangle every single baby seal, with my bare hands, if it would bring the price of gas down to a more reasonable 75 cents a liter, or so. Every last cuddly, cute, little one of them.
    :twisted:

    Well, maybe not quite, but we are all in this glass house together. Some of us are firebombing logging operations, and some of us are leading the rape and pillage, and making a killing. Most of us are somewhere in the middle, so we really ought not throw stones.

    Me personally, I don't really worry about the earth at all. It was here a long time before we were, and it will be around a looong time yet after we are gone. Species come, and species go. That's not going to change, and our fate will be no different from that of the dinosaurs, although I doubt we will be around for anywhere near as long as any of them were.

    It is true that we have vastly changed the earth in such a short time, but all we can really do is poison it bad enough to kill ourselves, and lots of other stuff of course, but then in a few hundred years, things will return to the way they were. And in a few thousand years, it will be like we were never even here at all. No kidding. And in a few billion years, there will be no earth at all, because the sun will burn out, or go super nova. Either way all you hippys, the Earth is completely doomed.

    It's just a matter of time...However, that's not to say we don't keep in nice for our kids, right?

    Just leave you with this little chestnut: 'At first, they came for the oil tankers, and I said nothing. Then they came for jet-skiiers, and I said nothing. Then they came for the pleasure boaters, again I said nothing. When they came for me, there was nobody left.'
     
  15. inpayne

    inpayne Paddler

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    If one is unstable upon the judgement in timing and skill to cross Johnstone Straight, then they have no rational business in an attempt to paddle the open coast. If a group is incapable of crossing Johnstone Straight then if they even now refuse to comply with the voluntary closure then they should remain sticking to the shoreline of Vancouver Island and be pressured to set the closest bordering regions of Robson Bight as the turnaround point for their trip. I have strong issues with gut reactions demanding an individual has a right to all.

    A freedom should not be viewed as an absolute for one. Fair and reasoned balance in limitations upon freedoms (species protection versus right of travel) can and should be met.

    If peer reviewed research displays that there is a risk of, or a current dangerous impact imposed by paddlers/campers upon specific areas such as Robson Bight, then by all means legislate a denial of navigation upon such a location during concerned periods. For paddlers that could mean adapting via approaches or anticipating the very viable crossing of the Straight to avoid the area of closure.

    In an area such a Robson Bight, the concern is upon a small population of animals that have a very low reproduction rate. The studied species affected by the Exxon Valdez spill were not under such a critical status. Not all regions have a subset of populations capable of such a resilience. It was luck in the location of that spill. It's all relative.... I even recall a mention of 'apples to oranges' already in this thread.
     
  16. inpayne

    inpayne Paddler

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    HAHA! Ya beat me to saying that!
    ...and that! I should take better care in reading the entire thread before posting.
    Last year I spent 2 1/2 days paddling up Johnstone Straight. On the first day from Quadra to West Thurlow it was wickedly fun sticking a few hundreds metres out of the the north side with ebbing, building seas and steady 20 knot south easterlies. Wickedly fast fun with hours of surfing! The next morning facing a flood it was to be of eddy racing from Camp Point on. When the current turned by mid-morning I was then facing a few km away thunder storms crossing from S-N to looking out for cruise ships emerging from the sheets of rain. Even one of our frigates came for a close pass with some of the crew waving on from deck.

    I did not feel vulnerable. SHIPS should not surprise anyone when they are transiting such a strict passage. When the currents and winds were favourable, I spent much of that passage well out from shore and always had at least 20 minutes to react to the sight of an approaching LARGE vessel.

    For Robson Bight, despite it being early in the season for whales on the rubbing beaches, I made a conscious effort to head toward the middle of the straight for my transit past. Directly off of the sanctuary I was joined by a speeding back & forth porpoise and a single large but meandering killer whale. That was pleasant luck and I despise those that feel a need to encroach upon the reserve to satisfy their right of passage or wild kingdom lust. ;)

    -Robin
     
  17. Ken B

    Ken B Paddler

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    I despise those who try to tell me what I can and cannot do outside actual Law.

    Silly me...I thought this was a Kayak Forum...Do we have to read/hear rider's eco-nutbar diatribe at every turn?
     
  18. DarrenM

    DarrenM Paddler

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  19. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    That's enough with the personal insults.

    Everyone is permitted their opinions on this site. If you disagree with someone's opinion, post your own as a rebuttal, and please do it without being contemptuous or rude.

    This site is well-known for it's friendly and respectful forums -- we'd like to keep it that way.

    *****
     
  20. sushiy

    sushiy Paddler

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    I don't see problem our (yours, in this case) goverenment ban certain type of boat in a certain part of water even if it is a kayak.


    You see a lot of case uneducated non-motorized boats disturbing others on and off shore. Those trash, noisy party, human deposit, destroyed bird nest, campfire burnt on driftwood which was a former house of those little critters, seal pup abandaned by mom because the baby smelles human, those gel coat and epoxy and plastice scraped and left on those rocks, etc.

    Maybe if the government ban kayak from some water, and there is a good reason for it, we will be more sensitive about how we behave. Sometimes we need harsh lesson to really realize that. We want to keep those water open to us, but we have to keep it impact free or even improve it so they(government, property owners, marine reserchers, etc.) don't see us a bad boats. So those oil tankers get the lesson and improve their ability to keep it low impact on this planet, isn't it good thing?