Earth Race meets it's end

Discussion in 'General Paddling Discussions' started by rider, Jan 11, 2010.

  1. wilder paddles

    wilder paddles Paddler

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    apology accepted Ken B. Although i am not sure why i was attacked seeing as i was defending your opinion, your right to it, and the value of it whether or not i agree with it.

    Rob
     
  2. rider

    rider Paddler

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    Just donated to SC.
    KenB, perhaps if you start your posts in a more respectful way, you will get more respect in return.
    On indigenous people's cultures. You know, I respect their ways,however, things have changed since they were formed. And their own ways have changed with availability of current technology. With modern boats,snowmobiles and trucks taking place of traditional craft. Today's native people often have the option of going to town to buy groceries, whales however still live the way they did thousands of years ago-but in a world of greater threats and reduced resources.
     
  3. JensG

    JensG New Member

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    I'm sure you have seen this before, but if not, please check it out. This is only one story of many. Some I know personally

    IMO we (the western world) don't have the right to ban these people to hunt whales in the way they have done for a thousand years. That is interference with nature. We can regulate their trading of the whale products and thus limit their "exposure" to western "whale killing equipment" (such as groceries). But given that they hunt with traditional methods, tools, etiquette and respect for the nature, they should be allowed to hunt as many whales as they believe is necessary. And frankly, I trust them better than the IWC to evaluate that number with their own methods.

    Our priorities regarding the nature should be to do our best not to run any species (or population) into extinction with our living habits. Native people (and their traditional living habits) should be included, we don't have the right to force our living habits upon them by banning theirs. After all, it's our habits that are ruining the planet (whales included), not theirs.
     
  4. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Jens,

    So-called subsistence cultures have a recognized quota of whales and pinipeds they can take in Alaska, I believe. Past bad experiences with use of high powered rifles and ski machines to over-use wild populations has required this. I think it is wholly unrealistic to expect cultures now extant in a globally modern world to fail to use modern weapons, except for "boutique" hunting, such as the bow seasons we see her for elk, bear, grouse, etc.

    No culture is fully isolated any more.
     
  5. pmc

    pmc Paddler

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    It does not matter if the culture is isolated or not. If whale hunting is a tradition it is part of their culture if they lose their culture that would be a tragedy. We have lost so many different cultures to our one consuming culture and we should try and protect as many as possible. Our new technology allow us to sustainably manage populations of animals which should be used to allow the traditional harvest to take first in order to preserve their culture as much as possible, weather or not they are hunting in traditional ways. It is ok for cultures to change with time that is normal differing techniques are normal. Just because the western world has brought new technology does not mean that those using must join western cultures. Aboriginal People do not want to kill species they just want the ability to access them as much as sustainably possible.

    Anyhow this is off topic just don't like hearing things that do not seem right to me.
     
  6. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    pmc,

    I basically agree with your position, except that not all traditions of indigenous cultures are worth preserving. On the west coast of northern america, from Oregon in the US through BC in Canada to SE Alaska, the taking of slaves and ritual killing was a well-established part of some cultures, as was raiding of other groups for booty. I think we all have a stake in how each culture treats its humans and its creatures; any form of mistreatment of animals and humans should not be tolerated anywhere, by indigenous cultures or imported ones.

    I agree the taking of marine mammals was a linchpin for several native groups, and it is worth preserving in some form consistent with maintenance of healthy populations of those critters. The Makah incident a few years back in which modern weapons wer used to take a couple whales, properly managed, could have been a good example. It got out of hand, if you recall.

    However, I do not agree that it was necessarily an airy principle for those cultures to live in harmony with nature, at all times. When starvation was on the land, I bet they would take the last spawning salmon to feed themselves. Certainly where I live, in modern times native cultures have not practiced good conservation of salmon resources on the Columbia ... and neither have the European stocks which rule the roost.

    I'd take a hard-nosed look at the actual take, and see how if affects stocks, before I went for it (if I were king :wink: ).
     
  7. JensG

    JensG New Member

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    Dave, you make good and valid comments.
    You are correct that native Alaskans have a quota. But this quota (the actual number of whales) is decided by politicians and diplomats and fought against by activists. That is the major point of my reasoning. The method of western "civilizations" to decide the quota is completely corrupted. If the activists were "kings" (as you put it) the quota would be zero, if the Japanese (whaling industry) were "kings" the quota would be infinite. Votes at the IWC councils are being traded with by the diplomats. The Alaskan natives are actually probably quite lucky to be a part of the mighty USA. Greenlanders probably weren't as lucky.
    You mention that slavery, ritual killing and raiding of other groups. These are things that we (the western world) may have changed in the living habits of some cultures. But in other cultures we have brought alcoholism, sexual crimes, serious depression (with sky-rocketing suicide rates) etc. Actually I don't think we are leading by example.
     
  8. Ken B

    Ken B Paddler

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    Fair statement rider...guilty as charged after my initial post!
    I admit I got my back up quickly. Not that it makes it right, but in all fairness, I felt I got 'Ran At' early in the Fish Farm thread, and it just spiraled down the wrong path for me.
    I guess I put my guard up when I saw early posts like "Ken B has the credibility of a barnacle in a hot tub"...

    I may not stop giving my opinion on sensitive subjects here :wink:...but I do pledge to work on my reaction to opposing posts. :cool

    A lot of good discussion on First Nations...a subject I'm very passionate about.
    Anyone who took part in the previous discussion on the rights of First Nations (Sea Otter thread) knows I support them in re-introducing a lot of their old 'Traditions'. Whaling for internal use is one I support.

    Now onto the subject at hand...the Sea Shepherd Society.
    I'm thinking most people look at the cause, in this case saving whales, and make their judgement to support or ignore.
    I tend to look past a cause and take a good look at the Head person(s) of an organization before making my final judgement.

    Now...I realize I may get some reaction, but...
    Personally...I don't like or trust Paul Watson.
    Just one article:
    http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/higgins100705.htm
     
  9. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    It doesn't have much credibility as an insult ... cause it's a meaningless statement ... does any barnacle have credibility? If the quote was "as welcome as a barnacle in a hot tub", then it would mean something.

    Anyway Ken, you won't get attacked (at least not personally) if instead of posting opinions, you post facts. You may have an interpretation of those facts, and that is okay. But to post opinions without any supporting facts is to ASK to be attacked. I would also venture that if you are going to post opinions that reek of a narrow world-view, you should attempt to find references that are credible ... for example, fox news is not very credible.

    By the way, if it is obvious that you are not reading the references that other posters quote, then you are likely to get flamed. "Ignorance is bliss" does not apply to the internet.

    On a lighter note, check out flame warriors, an example is the Ferrous Cranus
     
  10. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Actually nootka, opinions don't always have to be backed by facts here -- an opinion can merely be a personal view based on a persons thoughts. I checked -- we have no such rule on this site. In fact the only rules that we have are, well... I think we have a couple but I can't remember what they are right now.

    As far as the attacking goes, it's not factless information that will get a reaction here, it's caustic replies to any posts. We just don't need that -- it spoils the friendly atmosphere that we've worked hard to achieve on this site. If someone posts information that you think is not fact based, then let them know, in a gentlemanly manner. That's the way we prefer things.

    Ken, let's put all the whining crap behind us and move on with new and invigorating discussion here. You don't need to keep defending yourself with every little slight that gets tossed your way. Let it go.

    And just so that we're clear, I have a very difficult time knowing what are facts and what is bullxxxx from many sources, including a few that you've linked to, nootka. Everyone it seems, have the "facts" and the "data" to back up whatever view they want to back up. I don't know anymore who's telling the truth and who's lying. Up is down and down is up. Gets me a little sideways from time to time. What I do know for sure is that the world as a whole is in pretty xxxxty shape and a bunch of people from many different sects, cultures, and skin colors are screwing up our oceans not only for whales, but for everything else that's in it too. I think we all as human beings have xxxxed things up here in a major way and instead of trying to blame the next guy we should be doing everything that we can to fix this planet. No one will be exempt when the planet is barren wasteland. I truly feel sorry for the whales, they've just been swimming around minding their own business.

    btw, the six of us who run this site get to say what the rules are. Just so you know.

    Oh, it's still my opinion that Watson's boat was pretty cool.

    *****

    [Admin edit: Please refrain from using foul language.]
     
  11. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    True, true.

    I was just posting netiquette as I understand it ... my apologies if that stepped on any toes.

    Dan, you are welcome to pm me with any links I've posted that you feel are dubious, and I'll see if I can make clear why I've posted them.

    IMHO, this is the goal of the spin doctors.
     
  12. wilder paddles

    wilder paddles Paddler

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    I absolutely agree. its my opinion that if you take all "stats and data" from the various sides the "truth" usually sits in the middle. As for our planet and the state of it, "The planet will survive, the people are &*&^ed". its just too bad were gonna take many innocent species with us.
     
  13. rider

    rider Paddler

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    I disagree with most of this.
    Modern technology may allow us to monitor stocks more closely and set quotas, however modern gear and vessels also helps the resources be plundered faster by those who do not adhere to set limits, assuming they're actually set with sustainability as a goal in the first place.
    In my opinion, allowing a culture use modern WESTERN technology that they had absolutely no connection to creating, AND giving them special rights because of their culture is rather hypocritical. If they evolved on their own,invented and produced the technology advances, that would be different,but since they didn't, on what basis should it be allowed to be used if the sole reason is the uniqueness of the culture?
     
  14. wilder paddles

    wilder paddles Paddler

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    agreed
    let them hunt with a greenland kayak and harpoon!!! when cultural hunting meant putting your life on the line to feed your kin. somehow i doubt that's the case anymore. And why do our "cultures" take precedence over another animals right to live. most HUMANS no longer NEED to hunt and kill WILD animals for any reason. Survival is the ONLY reason for such activities.
     
  15. pmc

    pmc Paddler

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    It sounds like you guys think the use of western inventions or the adoption of western culture was a choice for these people. Lest we forget that not too long ago the Canadian government actively tried to kill their cultures, not the people but the cultures. To assume that they should go back to the way they were before that would be unrealistic and rather impractical not to mention slightly self focused. And to be frank about it it is rather crude to believe that we have the right to judge how they choose to hunt their seals or whales based on the fact that we think it is all fine and well to continue to fish salmon stocks to death, like we did the cod. The issue is not the technology in the over harvesting of natural resources but rather the philosophy behind it. Western = more gets more money now, aboriginal = enough for my family or community to survive until the next hunt.

    There is no argument for aboriginal groups not having rights to natural resources in the court anymore that is done it is the way it is they have them. Actually if you look into the whole thing the majority of British Columbia was illegally settled according to British Law, which if you were wondering is also Canadian Law. That means those that settled BC if brought to court by First Nations back in the day would have lost rights to the land. The issue was no one educated the groups on how to use the court system.

    To be honest i do not care if you agree with me or not. I am just tired of hearing remarks or statements that i consider borderline racist on this site. There is a lot of negative posting towards First Nations groups from what i see as little understanding of the problem. It is a societal problem. Not their problem but our problem together and some of the opinions that i hear on this site make me uncomfortable.

    And as for hunting and fishing it is not for subsistence but rather tradition and being allowed to do it give credibility to their culture which starts the healing path from all the sores that our culture has put theirs through.

    I will not comment on this anymore as i think i have pushed a little over the line of being on topic and really i am sick of this thread and the lack of true understanding of the problems. Everyone is an expert so no one learns anything
     
  16. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    I fail to see where there have been any racist posts. And quite frankly, am getting a bit tired of the "racist" word being bandied about any time someone doesn't like the views that someone else posted or a comment is made of another culture. pmc, I can appreciate where you're coming from with your concerns but don't agree with your racism remark. Comments about a culture? Sure. Racism? I don't think so.

    fwiw: I do agree with you that First Nations have had western culture forced upon them, and that it was not a choice. And I also agree that it isn't right but I don't know enough about it to suggest a solution.

    But for you to put the blame on western people for all the atrocities and results of history? To me, that seems a bit more headed towards racism than anything else posted in this thread.

    You comment that people in this thread have a lack of understanding of the problems, so instead of merely expressing your disapproval and pointing out their ignorance, why not use this as an opportunity to educate them?

    Interesting that this discussion should go off on this tangent considering that the thread is about protests against Japanese whaling practices.

    *****
     
  17. wilder paddles

    wilder paddles Paddler

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    if my comment came across as racist i do apologize. My choice of words may have been poor. the point i was trying to express was my belief that we ALL need to look at the big picture and put aside our cultural practices, economic practices, etc. for the benefit of the planet as a whole and the species inhabiting it. Without real change from all cultures there will soon be no whales for us to argue about!

    Morally i can accept a man hunting to feed his family when there's no other choice but i will not accept killing for the purpose of culture, sport, etc..

    My Greenland comment was more about the epic battle between man and beast. That type of survival conflict i find fascinating. I give the utmost respect to the way these people HAD to live. somehow High powered rifles and power boats don't have the same feel.
     
  18. dvfrggr

    dvfrggr Paddler

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    Racism

    Dan,
    Talking to a friend the other day about a book I read, The Dispossed the life and death of the First Nations People. The subject of racism on WCP was brought up and we both agreed that we feel and sense it all too often. I don't have any solutions or the skill to discuss online but thought I would pass my thoughts along to you.
    Dave R
     
  19. dvfrggr

    dvfrggr Paddler

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    Oops, Dan that was supposed to be a PM. :oops:

    Dave R
     
  20. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Well, it's out there now.

    The only comment that I can make about this is what I posted above. If you or others feel that there have been racist comments posted on this site, then it's my feeling that perhaps you're being overly sensitive. Myself and the others who run this site won't tolerate racist remarks here and would do something if we felt it were occurring. I think that some people (perhaps a few in this thread) have a difficult time distinguishing between observational comments about a culture and hateful comments towards a race of people.

    Then again, maybe I'm missing something altogether so if someone could point out examples of racist remarks that have been made on this site, I'd like to know -- please do it in a PM and not in this thread -- this discussion has gone off track far enough.

    *****