end pours and perimeter deck lines

Discussion in 'Boat and Accessory Building' started by meredith, Jul 29, 2016.

  1. meredith

    meredith Paddler

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    Hi All,

    I'm back with another question seeking advice and experience. I want to add perimeter deck lines but am not excited about doing endpours. I failed to think about doing them before the boat was finished and am now low on epoxy; thinking about how difficult it will be to execute neatly; and not excited about standing the boat on it's end. I'm wondering if anyone can comment on how troublesome this step will be (am I over concerned?) and how much epoxy it will take?

    Also, curious if there is a good alternative to endpours? Would a padeye, or pair of padeyes, by the boat ends for an anchor point be as strong and secure as an endpour? Good enough for bow tie-downs while car topping and pulling on during rescues?
    Any thoughts or advice would be welcome as always.

    Thanks again for all the help!
     
  2. JohnAbercrombie

    JohnAbercrombie Paddler

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    Meredith:
    I've forgotten what type of construction you are using..is it stitch and glue plywood?
    Most S&G boats have quite 'pointy' ends and may take less epoxy than you would think.
    You don't have to set the boat completely vertical if you are trying to get an end pour that is closer to the deck.
    Practicing with plastic cups and sticks and string is a good idea.
    Also, it's better to do the end pour in stages - if you put too much epoxy in at once it will overheat.

    For my boats, I prefer stainless U-bolts set into the ends of the deck, epoxy bonded into an end block or end pour.
    This works as an anchor for the perimeter lines and the end toggle as well as a locking point.
    End tie-down points (for car-topping) don't have to be strong- you don't want too much force on them or you will risk breaking the boat.


    I'd have no problem using nylon padeyes along the length of the deck for perimeter lines. Fastening (stainless?) padeyes into the end of the boat in a very strong way could be tricky. If you could get padeyes bolted through the deck ends with metal backing plates, and the deck was well-glassed right to the end, it could work. Access would be a challenge ?
     
  3. meredith

    meredith Paddler

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    Hi John,
    Thanks for all the info. Yes, the boat is a stitch and glue (Pygmy kayak, Freya). It does have quite pointy ends, and would likely not take much epoxy. If I used padeyes instead, I can reach fairly close to the bow through the front bulkhead to fasten bolts. I had also noticed these carbon eyestraps on CLCs website (http://www.clcboats.com/shop/products/b ... strap.html) and wondered about them. So maybe some options?

    Thanks
     
  4. JohnAbercrombie

    JohnAbercrombie Paddler

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    If you can reach, then a metal padeye with backing plate would be OK for perimeter line end anchors, IMO. Can you reach far enough into the end to put a padeye on the mid-line to use for an end toggle?

    BTW, you can get creative with a 1/4" drive socket wrench and a piece of pipe/tubing as a long handle to hold the nut while a helper wields the screwdriver above deck.

    If they weren't so expensive, those CLC carbon eyestraps would be great for gear tiedowns inside the cockpit or bow/stern compartments and would also make good attachment points inside compartments for hatch cover lanyards. I make something similar with scraps of cloth in my shop.
    In spite of the CLC statement that you can pull the deck off the boat before the glue bond will fail, I wouldn't trust them for perimeter line end anchors or bow toggles, though.
     
  5. meredith

    meredith Paddler

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    I can reach to within about a foot and a half of the bow. Far enough to put one on the mid-line with backing, but probably not quite far enough to want to use for a toggle. I also thought the carbon straps were a bit costly and questioned using one for an anchor.

    Feel like I should probably deal with the end pour, just have to commit to one last finishing step, and wish I had done it earlier.

    I have paddled the boat for the first time though, without it's full rigging. Certainly fun, but harder to practice rescues without perimeter lines to move the boat around.
     
  6. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    meredith wrote: I can reach to within about a foot and a half of the bow. Far enough to put one on the mid-line with backing, but probably not quite far enough to want to use for a toggle.

    Meredith, how are you setting the boat up for that reach? I am asking because I found in building my Pygmies that height from the floor of the open cockpit (boat hull down on cradles on saw horses), and height from the floor to the bottom of my butt as I sat on a stool or staxk of books, etc., both influ3nced how deeply I could reach inside. In the end, I was able to get my head and arm into the cockpit, arm inserted all the way to my armpit. With a good headlamp, I had good visibility of the bow.

    If you drill holes for placing a U-bolt, prior to the end pour, and use a socket wrench clamped onto a stick to tighten the interior nuts, you should be able to secure rhe U-bolt. If your reach is too short, there is no shame in enlisting the aid of a long-limbed friend.

    Once the U-bolt is secure, the end pour is best done in stages, as others have mentioned, bow down maybe 20 to 30 degrees, pouring first the deck side then the hull side in succession, achieved by rotating the boat 180 degrees. I did my end pour mixes in a half cup measuring cup, which I could attach to the end of a stick quickly (carriage bolt through the stick, partway from its end, passed through a hole in the cup handle), with wing nut to hold it on the stick end. By mixing directly in the cup, little time is used between initial mixing and delivery to the bow. I used wood flour as thickener, but fumed silica aka Cabosil also is good.

    You do not have to produce a solid chunk of end pour, just enough to thoroughly bed the ends of the U-bolt. By working quickly and spreading the mixture out, you should not get any runaway exothermic pours. Slow hardener is good, regular is fine, but fast is too quick, at 70 F, anyway.
     
  7. meredith

    meredith Paddler

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    Hi Dave,

    Thanks for the quick replies and advice, again. I can probably reach closer to the ends using the techniques you described. Do you also prefer placing a U-bolt for the rigging anchor point? Or is there a reason to drill through the stem and endpour and run the rigging that way?

    Also, this is a kind of related question. I've always been told to car top and store my fiberglass boat on it's side as this is stronger than the hull. I'm wondering if the same advice applies to wooden SNG boats? I drove a short distance with both boats, on their sides, to test paddle the new wood boat. I did not use a bow tie down for the wood boat since the rigging wasn't available yet. But did notice the wood boat seemed to catch the wind a bit more (maybe just because it's lighter it moves a bit more?).
    Just curious if anyone has thoughts.

    Thanks
     
  8. JohnAbercrombie

    JohnAbercrombie Paddler

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    If you already have 'J' racks for the car and 'on the side' storage for your boats, you could keep using them.

    However, I don't think there's any problem transporting and storing glass boats, and wood-epoxy-glass boats on their keels (right-side up). That's what I do and I have no problems.

    I also think it's probably more 'aerodynamic' to transport boats 'right side up'. I drive fast when the limit allows and the boats don't move around on the rack.


    I've used 1" PVC pipe 'rollers' (PVC over steel conduit) supports in the kayak shed for years with no ill effects.

    For transporting boats, I use cradles on the roof rack and put straps at the crossbar locations.

    I only use end ties if I'm transporting a long (18' +) boat at high speed, and they are never 'cranked down tight'. If the crossbars on your rack are close together (a problem with modern 'aero' roof cars), or if you are using foam blocks instead of cradles, then end ties may be necessary every time.
     
  9. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Meredith,


    Anchor for deck rigging ...
    are you referring to the perimeter lines and / or bungies? If so, I think ordinary pad eyes, thru-bolted to the deck, with oversized washers underdecks are just fine. Some folks bed their hardware with a little marine sealant. I favor butyl rubber or Lexel, not 4200 or 5200, because the latter are mother bear hard to remove. Lexel is at hardware stores, and clear eliminates any need to fuss over ragged edges. Best to slightly over drill each hole, then fill with a little filled epoxy followed by redrilling to the clearance size needed for each screw/bolt, before final bedding. This ensures water does not get into the plywood and cause rot.
     
  10. JohnAbercrombie

    JohnAbercrombie Paddler

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    Dave:
    Are you referring to the common black plastic padeyes, or SS ones?
    The plastic padeyes usually have a countersunk hole and I have seen one that was pulled off the deck (with the cs machine screw still in place).
    One problem is that the plastic padeyes seem to invite using a #8 c.s. fastener, when you should to enlarge the hole a bit to take a #10 fastener. The SS padeyes usually have flat strap ends and take a round-head machine screw, which is a lot stronger attachment combination. But, a bit ugly...

    I agree about the oversized washers -not an easy thing to find 'off the shelf', usually. A SS (like the U-bolts use) or even aluminum backing plate with two holes is even stronger and can be improvised if necessary.

    Getting the washer and nut on the machine screw under the deck using a socket wrench on a stick is a lot of fun! :D
    (Mastic or some sort of goop can help hold things in place in the socket).
     
  11. meredith

    meredith Paddler

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    The only thing I've actually done to the deck so far has been to attach the hatch cover straps. I used the straps supplied by Pygmy (black webbing) stainless steel screws, nyloc nuts, and this silicone caulk to bed the screws (http://www.clcboats.com/shop/products/b ... alant.html). There were no washers supplied for the inside and I did not add any. However, the hatches appeared bone dry after some practice rolling.

    Pygmy supplies standard plastic black padeyes (look like a small U and require two screws) for the bungees. I was thinking of not using these and just making soft padeyes using a small loop of webbing and a single machine screw/ washer/ nyloc nut/ caulk, mainly to minimize number of holes drilled and the raised height of the plastic padeyes. For all holes I have been drilling slightly larger, filling, and re-drilling to the size of the screw. I have a good local small hardware store and finding odd size fasteners is not a problem.

    I'm planning to add bungees to the foredeck and maybe the aft deck as described. Just still unsure about perimeter lines with end pours at bow and stern. Those attachment points (i.e perimeter line at the bow and stern) are the ones I was questioning.

    Here are a couple more questions along those lines. The hardware store informed me there is stainless steel and then there is marine grade stainless steel. It does not seem marine grade would be necessary since the boat is not stored in the water and is always rinsed and stored dry after use. Also, I'm using Systems Three Epoxy, medium hardener, for the entire boat so far. I have some cold cure Systems Three from another project leftover. Could I use that for the end pours?

    I realize one question leads to more questions!

    Thanks again
     
  12. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Meredith, Not familiar with Cold Cure. The other issues seem normal to me. Quarrels over type of SS are common.

    I think padeyes are OK for perimeter line terminations. Remember that you want a little slack in a perimeter line system so you can slip your fingers under the line. Have you settled on a line diameter? I am leery of parachute cord for this. I would go with a larger diameter, perhaps a bit less than quarter inch.
     
  13. JohnAbercrombie

    JohnAbercrombie Paddler

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    At summer temperatures, the ColdCure may react pretty quickly, so I'd be careful to mix and use smaller quantities.
    Otherwise it should work just fine.
    Adding a filler like microballoons will help to stretch the epoxy - just don't get the mix too thick or 'too dry'. Also, keep in mind that fillers speed up the curing reaction and heat buildup.
    As Dave mentioned, you won't need to get the boat vertical 'on its end' to do the end pour. If you can raise up one end of the boat (rope to joist or ceiling hook, or stepladder support, or...) you'll be able to get epoxy into those pointy ends. You probably have a fillet partially filling the extreme end anyway. If you put a SS U-bolt up against the end of the boat, you may be surprised that you don't need such a big end 'pour' as you thought.

    If you decide to bond a U-bolt into each end, you can cut the legs of the U short if necessary. It's strongest if you can bond it with the nut on, but that makes a bigger hole in the deck than you might like. On some builds, I've split the end of the bolt or rod with a hacksaw and flared out the end a bit. Once something like that (or even just U-bolt threads) is bonded into epoxy, it's not coming out easily.

    About your 'low profile' idea and soft padeyes. That will work, though the webbing will tend to 'wrinkle' and need renewing eventually - not a big deal. The one area where I've had problems with padeyes (and even knots in deck lines) is about level with the knees and feet , along the side of the deck. It's really easy to hit there with the paddle, if you are using a higher angle (efficient) stroke. Not very damaging, just irritating and noisy.
    As Dave said, you do want to make the lines easy to grab, so make them thick enough and with enough (but not too much) slack. I've seen excellent paddlers with plastic tubing over deck lines, or small floats threaded on the lines to make them easier to grab. In a rescue situation, it's often a case of grabbing 'blind' for a deck line that's under an inverted boat, if the swimmer hasn't been able to flip it upright.
    I also agree with Dave's suggestion to stay away from nylon deck lines - you want low stretch polyester line, which (unlike nylon) doesn't change length a lot when wet.
     
  14. Kayak Jim

    Kayak Jim Paddler

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    This is what I used (with screw into epoxy) on my CLC and it worked out well.
     
  15. Mac50L

    Mac50L Paddler

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    What would anyone want to pour epoxy into the end of a kayak for? Just a waste of epoxy and added weight. The bow (usually) has a piece of wood in it where the sides meet and there is a small stern piece for the rudder to mount on to. Minimal epoxy use.

    The fore attachment/lifting point I put a block under the deck, across and glued to the sheerclamps. Screws go through the deck and into the block allowing lifting of the kayak when fully loaded. A similar arrangement aft.

    Decklines go through plastic 2-screw fittings. the line is tensioned by a very short rod of plastic with 2 deckline sized holes through it. It is at the fore end of the decklines, against the fore lifting attachment. The lines are of a reasonable tension (slack-ish) and tensioned by pulling the tensioner back aft.
     
  16. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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  17. JohnAbercrombie

    JohnAbercrombie Paddler

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    That's all very well, but not a lot of use to somebody who forgot to install that wood block before joining the hull and deck (or wasn't advised to in the instructions provided by the kit company).
     
  18. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    It could still be done this way -- albeit a bit more of a challenge, but it can be done.