How many hardcore sea kayakers don't have a roll?

SWriverstone

SWriverstone

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A question out of curiosity here: I'm curious about how many hardcore sea kayakers (those who have been paddling open water for decades in all kinds of conditions, often for days at a time) don't know how to roll a kayak?

I've been paddling my sea kayak for two decades without knowing how to roll. I was a whitewater canoeist and have a bombproof canoe roll (single-bladed paddle)...but alas, that doesn't help you with a kayak roll at all as most kayak rolls use an entirely different technique (the only thing in common is the hip snap). And there are no "layback" rolls in a canoe. I'm committed to learning a kayak roll this winter (at indoor rolling sessions)...but all this got me wondering how many experienced sea kayakers have never learned to roll?

I recognize that if you are prepared (e.g. drysuit) and are experienced with doing wet exits and re-entering the boat in a variety of ways (cowboy reentry, paddle float outrigger, etc.) you could probably get away with never learning to roll. I've avoided rolling simply because I never launch or land on an open beach in heavy surf (the most likely time to get "windowshaded"). But I'd like to be able to do that! Hence my desire to learn to roll. (And I should add that if you get windowshaded by a breaking wave in heavy surf in 2 feet of water, you aren't going to roll. LOL)

Scott
 
I've got a roll, buts it's of questionable reliability. I keep meaning to spend the time to really refine it until it's bombproof. I'd love to spend some time practicing in a pool, but haven't found a venue.

Some folks really love rolling, to the point that paddling seems like an excuse to go rolling for them.
I'd like to refine it so that surfing is more fun, but don't really love rolling.
 
It has been years since I have had to do a combat roll, and likely I would not be successful if I needed one now. I've never had a totally reliable, all conditions combat roll, but 10-15 years ago I would make more than 50-50 of those combat rolls I tried.

For the 2+ years prior to this summer, I didn't roll at all (even practice rolls), as I had some tendinitis in my left forearm that was triggered by rolling. Padding was fine, so I was still paddling. Getting back in to practicing from time to time now, and my practice rolls are pretty reliable.

Surfing and rock gardening are the 2 areas where rolls definitely can make a difference, and having a strong roll would let you do more advanced stuff. Not having a roll wouldn't prevent you from doing it, but limit the locations/conditions you should go in. So I limit myself to areas where another form of self or assisted rescue would be fine (and generally stick to conditions where my chance of flipping would be small anyway). I likely wouldn't do the run shown in my profile picture any more (though if the landing zone was a deep protected pool where another rescue would be easy, I might). S I do easier and safer feature for rock gardening and stick to surfing waves that are safer for when I flip.

My partner never got a combat roll and even a pool roll was hit or miss at best. We just limit the rocks and surf for her.
 
When done well, a sweep roll (the kind most commonly used in whitewater) can be very low-impact and easy to do, since you barely need to move your arms at all (the roll comes almost entirely from your torso rotation and hip snap). But yep, it takes a lot of practice. When I was learning my whitewater canoe roll, I'd go to a pool and literally just go round and round and round nonstop, seeing how many rolls I could do in a row!

I wouldn't mind doing some rock garden paddling, though that can be intimidating to me now depending on the circumstances. I think you can actually apply a whitewater rating scale to rock gardens—with class 2-3 being gentle flow-throughs and low "waterfalls" with big flat pools for recovery...versus class 4-5 rock gardens where any mistake could leave you getting pounded to a pulp against rocks or cliffs. (I'll likely never do any Tsunami Rangers-level stuff, LOL.)

I mainly just want to launch and land safely from beaches in heavy surf. And even launching isn't bad, because (unless you're trying to paddle through 10-foot-plus waves which I wouldn't try) paddling out through waves is pretty easy: you just put your head down and sprint like hell until you're through! Landing in surf is the scary part without a roll...since it's often impossible to avoid going for a sidesurf in moderate to big surf.
 
Going back to some basics - "surfing" and "surf zone" are different skills, and rolling requirement is different for each..

Surfing is using the wave to play. You are trying to get on waves that will push you along (often the larges wave of a set), and will relatively often mess up on timing or wave choice. Capsizes are frequent. You are often in areas with deep water (such as tide races). Being able to roll is a huge benefit, so that when do find yourself upside down, you ca get back upright and going quick.

Surf zone sounds like what you want to do - that is just getting in and out through surf safely. You generally are trying to choose areas with small waves, and then choosing the smallest waves of a set to go in and out. You are trying to choose beaches with less steep or dumpy waves. A wave face that is about 2' tall (which seems huge when you are sitting in your kayak - that is almost eye height) is breaking in about 3' of water. So if you capsize in that water, you may not want to roll anyway - but rather exit to keep yourself from dragging along the bottom. Your gear generally would flush o shore, so exiting isn't that bad. You go to shore and collect gear and empty stuff and try again (if you were going out).

Guess I am saying go out and do the surf zone (perhaps under the tutelage of an instructor) without worrying too much about rolls.
 
I practice rolls because they are fun, great for core strengthening, a great way to cool off, and are useful for paddling in rock gardens and tide races. I generally use a sweep lay-back (high-brace) roll and have a reliable "combat" roll in some boats (especially those with low back decks), but not in others (my Nordkapp, which I use for expeditions). Before the pandemic shut-down, I was getting close to having a hand roll. I've recently started working towards that goal again. Right now, I can easily roll my day boat (NDK Pilgrim) in the pool with half a two-piece Greenland paddle. I'm also working on getting a forward-finishing (low-brace) roll.

Many members of our kayak club (BASK) never paddle outside the SF Bay and have little to no need for a roll. T-rescue is a far more important skill.
 
Sea kayaking since 1983, never done a roll. My partner, sea kayaking since mid 1990s, never done a roll.
We've kayaked in places between 50 south and 50 north latitudes.

Also never do a T rescue, takes too long and isn't safe in bad weather.
 
This is the kind of surfing I'm used to doing, LOL (An old video of me surfing a big fast wave o the Potomac River in 1992. In a slalom C-1.)

 
I kayaked for about fifteen years without a roll, including big solo expeditions: the Inside Passage, and trips in Alaska and Haida Gwaii where I would be out for up to four weeks at a time without resupply. I finally decided to learn to roll after disaster struck during a risky trip out to the continental shelf and back to look for seabirds. Dave Resler of this forum showed me the technique, and then I practiced in the pool for about eight hours until I got it down. Now I practice every couple months or so in the local lakes and bays.

I don’t think a roll would have saved me on the continental shelf trip. I think I was just screwed. But learning to roll has opened the door to many other adventures that might have been too dangerous without a roll: Triangle Island off Cape Scott; Harvey Island in Hecate Strait; Slingsby Channel on a big ebb; Cape Flattery alone at night. Thanks to the roll, I no longer fear big surf landings, although once the surf gets up to about four feet, I’m still more likely to capsize than I am to land gracefully. Even a three-footer can still sometimes wipe me out.

As many posters above attest, forgoing a roll won’t keep you from having extraordinary adventures. But a roll has made my already rich paddling even richer.

Alex
 
Man in qajaq said:
Most experienced paddlers I've meet, (even if they do not know how to roll), have such a bomb proof brace that a roll is never needed. And having wet exit self recovery skills would be in their tool box.
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I’ve been working on my roll, but it is nowhere near bombproof. But I’ve also not capsized unintentionally for years, and I go out looking for rough waters and currents to play in. Having good boat control and confidence bracing has helped me stay upright in those conditions which I enjoy. The last time I was playing in currents with a paddling partner, we practiced various wet-exits and rescues (assisted and self). He has a bombproof roll and I am a bit jealous of his ability to calmly roll back up in dynamic water!

Considering I plan to do both my PC L3 and the “Road to Skookumchuck” course from DCK in the future, I’ll continue to work on my roll until it becomes as second nature as a brace.
 
Still working on mine, after haven taken a short rolling course. One thing I noticed was all the short people had no problems rolling. But at 6’2” 240 lbs my upper body is like a giant keel when upside down plus with a nose that can’t shut water out I will come up choking every time, and I’m not really keen on wearing nose plugs all day. It’s discouraging. How I envy those who can just make it look so easy. When I was a teenager we had a large pool, I should have been into kayaking then, I’d probably be a pro roller now. I think you need to dedicate a day or two of solid rolling practice to get there.
 
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alexsidles said:
Dave Resler of this forum showed me the technique
Click to expand...
Dave rocks! He has been my trip partner for 20 years and his roll (and experience teaching it) is just one of his many paddling skills that makes him one of the best kayakers that most have never heard of.
 
Tiger Shark, if you lay that long body onto your back deck, it will not be a keel preventing you from rolling up relatively effortlessly. I know plenty of large tall guys who can roll their boats. Rolling is about flexibility and core strength, not arm or upper body strength. If you can’t lie back on your deck, try lifting your butt out of the seat a little bit as you lay back. Or, try rolling a boat with a lower back deck.

As a practice move, do a balance brace, which entails practicing the one-handed butterfly roll from its last step first. To do so, put an inflated paddle float on the arm that you will slide towards as your slide off your back deck (e.g., on you right arm). Practice sliding off the right side of your back deck toward the paddle float arm. Keep your *back flat on the water* and your *chin up, eyebrows in the water*. Stretch the lower, right arm, with the paddle float, along the water surface to be above your head (as if your were waving your arm overhead if you were upright) and stretch the upper, left, arm back to the lower edge of the back deck (this requires twisting your butt in the seat to face upwards from the water). Float calmly in that position (keep your *back flat to the water, chin up and eyebrows in the water*), then try using your legs and core to wiggle the boat from side to side while in that position. Finally, reverse your action by sliding back up onto your back deck as you use your legs to roll the boat back under your body. As you do this, keep your *back flat to the water* (don’t let your shoulder go down, as it will dive you back under the boat). Bring your head up onto the back deck last. Then, once stable on the back deck, sit upright (this is the most strength-requiring step). As you get more comfortable with the balance brace, reduce the air in the paddle float. Eventually, it’ll have so little air that you can start holding your paddle through the paddle float. (For the butterfly roll, keep the paddle parallel to your boat) Finally, discard the paddle float and do the move with only the paddle. Once you’ve got the balance brace, you can let yourself roll down under the boat as you wiggle the boat with your legs and core and then come back up on the same side. Finally, try rolling 360 degrees, using the balance brace to slide yourself back up onto the back of the boat. Helen Wilson has some great videos demonstrating these techniques, with which she has taught many people their rolls.

Don’t expect to have a comfortable, reliable roll in a week or two. Like any complex maneuver, it requires practice to get it and to keep it. Use it or lose it!
 
A roll is more like a rainbow. It may be there; it may not. It's not something you get/have permanently. Place and conditions play a large part. There's a big difference between having a 98% successful roll in a warm swimming pool and being able to roll in swift water at Deception Pass. It even makes a difference if you are in the shallow or deep end of the pool. There's a lot of "mental" going on.

I haven't done a roll in years. I also, very seldom, paddle alone. If I go over, in addition to assistance from my partner, I have a variety of ways to get back in, including Re-entry and role. One time, and one time only (in a swimming pool), I was able to hold my breath long enough to enter my upsidedown kayak (hence empty of water), attach my spray skirt, and roll up in a dry boat. When I go over, I usually have three shots at the roll before needing to bail out.

So that's a point - don't think because you missed the roll on the first try, you have to pull your sprayskit and bail. You can usually calm yourself and give it one more try before exiting.

The biggest obstacle in getting a successful roll was lifting my head up last. That is where 90% of my efforts were needed.
The role is not physically difficult. When you hit it right, it's like just the right hit on a baseball or the perfect swing of a golf club. The boat comes up so easily and fast, you have to be ready to brace on the other side or you'll throw yourself over as a follow-through.

But even if you are 80% of the way up, if you obey that natural inclination to lift your head, back down you'll go.

You can practice that on dry ground. Lay on your left side, raise your left knee a little, and have a friend hold it there (like bracing in the kayak). Now looking down, brace on the knee and lift your body towards a sitting position. Half way up, lift your head, looking up. Feel yourself fall back towards the floor.

There are all kinds of "tricks"... "Watch the submerged blade of your paddle." "Pretend you are looking at a watch on your submerged arm." Like a Zen Master who points to the moon and instructs, "See the moon, not the finger.", the goal, with whatever technique works best for you, is to raise your head up last.
 
During rolling class (4hours) we learned the butterfly roll, float up on your back with your arms straight out, use the hip flick to get your boat on its edge, then continue to move your yourself on your back towards the back deck while continuing your hip flick driving your lower knee up and your other leg forward, sitting up at the end. It worked a few times for me, in fact I actually went up and over a few times too. We didn’t even use our paddles just held them on the water beyond our head. I really just need to dedicate the time to it, I know I can do it and its just technique not strength. The Gearlab rolling float is a great asset too. There are a few good videos of holding a dock or the bow of another kayak to get the hang of the hip flick.
 
A few decades back I was a 90-pound weakling (I’m now a much heavier weakling), so I joined a martial arts club to learn to “defend myself”. Soon I realized that for self-defense to be effectively trained, I had to join a much more “hard-core” club, eventually landing in a place where cops, bouncers, and tough-guys congregated. I got stomped, choked, smacked, and -- just the once -- bitten. My wife would remark, “For a guy who is learning to defend himself, you sure get beaten up a lot!” But I enjoyed it, somewhat – that is, until the physical cost of the training outweighed the theoretical benefits.

That is when I quit my dojo and developed my own ultimate martial art, one that increases physical safety by 99%. I call it bed-jitsu and anyone can master it with regular training. At the basic level it goes like this: be in bed by 10 PM and you will avoid most physical confrontations. Advanced students cultivate the secret technique of avoiding bars. I still practice daily.

This long preamble explains my current thinking on rolling. I went through a similar progression to the one described above: I learned in a pool, realized that I need a more extreme environment, went looking for nasty conditions, and spent a lot of time being beaten up. And then my wife made the inevitable comment: “For a guy who wants to ‘learn to be safe’, you sure put yourself at risk.”

And so I developed another art. This one is called beach-jitsu and it can be mastered by anyone, even children. At its basic level it goes like this: stay on the beach when it’s windy and rough. More advanced practitioners will make coffee.

Cheers,
Andrew
 
Andrew, ... and you LIKED IT!

As for the "butterfly" roll ... maybe, maybe not. I recall the words of one instructor who refused to teach a paddle float entry even though it was on the kayak camp schedule. He told the managers, "In the conditions the paddler is likely to go over, a paddle float re-entry ain't gonna work. I'll teach'em a Re-entry and Roll."

I don't 100% agree with him because people have to start somewhere. Beginners can tip over on a glass smooth lake if their center of gravity gets off ... "look at the fish ..." (join the fish). Knowing you can get back in the kayak gives you confidence to work on lean turns and on finding the kayak's secondary stability point (and trusting it).

But I want my "roll" to work with "wind waves to 2.5 feet" and quartering seas from the stern.
 
I would guess 60-80% percent of hard core sea kayakers do not have a reliable roll in conditions. These are people who get out there, do all kinds of stuff, go all kinds of places and have reliable backups in approach, gear, and techniques.

Sea kayaking also includes paddling on the edge of ability where a reliable roll in conditions means no liability, less wasted time, less wasted effort and therefore maximal joy: but that is a subset.

Sea kayaking is a huge field that can mostly be completely enjoyed to the fullest extent without a roll. And the hardcore kayakers who do it without a roll are often the ones that one [ or I especially ] can, and have, and will learn the most from.
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Been at ths for abit more than ten years now, so a beginner in many ways...

Neither Eva or i have a roll (currently), but we did the "Road to Skook" from DCK this year, after clearing our skill level and expectations with them, and every one was inside their own comfort zone from the get-go - we learned tons and tons, can't recomend that course highly enough - later went back to Skook for fun, between the two of us we captised eight times in ten days there this year, no sweats scrabling back in, or heal hooking with a laugh, while you spin around in a whirlpool - and then back to the eddy for another run.... it's kinda superb fun

We also went to James Manke's Ukee Weekend, took a surf course with Amber Campion and Jamie Sharp, our learning curve was astronomical, agan we went back on our own for a few more days to re enforce what we could absorb.... there's so much a really good teacher can get across in a few hours that could take years (or never) to sort without that guidence, we got above (just) a 50% no swim landing in 2-3' surf at Wikkinish

in both cases we pitched the coaches that although we could not roll, we are comfortable capsitsing in rough water, holding onto paddle and boat, getting ourselves back in with smile

Eva did her first (and so far only) roll at the Ukeee Weekend, i'm a work in progress, a roll is our focus for the fall / winter, but the lack of a roll has not really forced us to change plans, the learning we gained this year has been amazing to both of us, hats off to great techers / coaches Mike gill, James Manke, Amber Campion, Jamie Sharp, Robert Nesbaum, Lucas Booy that took us under thier wings even tho we were not really qualified for the course ;-)
 
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