How many hardcore sea kayakers don't have a roll?

However, I think there is a big difference between having a roll and losing it and never rolling at all. A lot of hours were invested in, "... lift your head last. ..." and there is still muscle memory of it. If I can calm my mind and execute the motion I have in my mental vision, I'll likely come up. That's a different world from not having that vision at all. And that "vision" comes from rolling up, not watching YouTube videos of other people rolling.

Another benefit is being able to do a "partial" roll; a re-enter and roll, with or without a paddle float. Again, it may be a skill that has gone on vacation. But it was there. And that's different from never being there at all.

So - just because many admit to having a roll at one time but maybe not now, I don't think that should be interpreted as, "I don't need to learn how to roll." I'm not saying that any post above indicated such. And I'm not even saying learning to roll is absolutely necessary (though it is a good idea). I'm only saying that just because some people who had a roll have misplaced it, doesn't imply learning to roll is a waste of time.
 
Is there an inverse relationship between length of expedition and ability to roll? Whitewater kayakers and surf-kayakers who go out for hours at a time can all roll. Of the typical WCP sea kayakers who go out for days or weeks at a time, half of us can roll and half of us can't. And the kayakers like Oskar Speck and Kayak Bill who go out for years at a time cannot roll at all.

Alex
 
the inverse relationship would be between less specialized craft/use vs specialized uses that essentially require quick remounting to be practiced or enjoyed.
for example some specialized uses [fishing kayaking say] would be low on the rollability as well.
 
Actually, I think we could simplify the relationship as strictly proportional: the more unintended capsizes, the better the roll. My glory days of rolling were also my glory days of capsizing. That was when I surfed as much as I could.

Being a bad surfer, I got lots of mandatory rolling practice.

Cheers,
Andrew
 
I have several rolls on both sides but I also really enjoy rolling and I practice a lot. I went down the Greenland stick rabbit hole as a way to increase my paddling without a lot of shoulder pain and never looked back.

I've paddled many years without having a roll but had a couple of oh crap moments while paddling alone. Since I previously paddled alone the majority of the time, I figured that I needed to be more self sufficient. Self rescues in rough water were very difficult and not enjoyable at all. I decided after the second incident, I was going to learn to roll if it killed me.

I initially learned the C to C but it never really became second nature. Then an instructor loaned me EJ's Rolling and Bracing DVD. The bracing and sculling were total head slappers for me. Everything fell into place so quickly and easily, especially when using a GP.

I went to several Qajaq USA events and was totally hooked. Sculling became part of my normal warm up/stretching routine. It's amazing how much of a confidence boost it is to have a several solid rolls. Now when I paddle, solo or with others, I have no worries of going over as most of us practice rolling and sculling everytime we go out. The re-enter and roll is so much faster and easier (at least for me) than any other self or assisted rescue, plus it's easier on my joints.

A buddy and I had the pleasure of spending several days this past summer playing in Deception Pass. The rough water fun factor goes up significantly when you have a solid roll. You never worry about tripping over a wave, which happened often, because we knew that we would easily scull up and lay there as long needed/wanted before rolling up. Although we're nowhere near Warren Williamson's skill level, I can honestly say that rolling and sculling through the Room of Doom and Canoe Pass, while a crowd is gathered ~130' above you on the bridge, taking pictures and cheering you on to "Do it again!", feels awesome and brings a great big grin to my face. And no, neither of us ever punched out (hopefully I didn't jinx us!).

I always encourage folks to try to learn to scull and roll, as the confidence, safety and fun are directly correlated. If they bring back SSTIKS next year, that would be a great place to start.

Cheers!

Tony
 
I ended up taking a proper rolling lesson recently after having a sort of self taught roll for a while. I could roll, but wasn't really confident in it.

What a difference it made to have some proper, focused instruction. Breaking it down to the fundamentals made it super smooth.
After a little mucking about I was rolling on my 'off' side too, which felt so good I'm wondering if I really have an 'off' side.

I'd recommend taking a course from a good roller to anyone who wants to improve their roll. It made a huge difference. Now I find rolling FUN!
 
A little bit of instruction from a skilled teacher goes a long way.
During a winter pool session, when I was beginning to explore some of the more advanced rolls, I happen to briefly meet James Manke there. He gave me literally less than three minutes of his time and I was now nailing the rolls I was struggling with.
 
So true. I struggled for months with the storm roll even though I had a solid continuous storm roll on both sides. One of the first Greenland camps that I attended had Dubside and several other big name rollers mentoring. Dubside took one look at what I was doing, told me to make a couple little adjustments and then the storm roll immediately worked almost effortlessly.

I would suggest working with as many mentors/instructors as possible as they all have their strengths and occasionally see things that others don't.
 
I haven't posted a comment in years, but here goes nothing:

If you are still learning how to roll, be VERY careful about who you let "help" you. I know two different women paddlers who had to have their shoulders surgically repaired after some big, strong rando man at the pool yanked them back upright because their roll failed. If someone wants to help you learn to roll, make sure they understand that the best way to help you get back up after a failed roll attempt is to allow YOU, the paddler, to grab onto the "helper's arm" to rotate back up under your own power. These guys all mean well, but brute strength is not the solution and shoulder surgery is an expensive, time-consuming, and extraordinarily painful thing to go through.

Secondly, your goal during roll practice is to practice perfect technique. Poor technique leads to injuries and it doesn't work when you need it. If your roll is only 90% reliable in the pool, it will work less than half the time in a combat situation. And if it only works 50% of the time in the pool, it will never work when you need it.

The best way to practice perfect technique is to shoot video of your roll, and after every roll or two, STOP, watch the video and critique your technique. Professional baseball players just swing the bat and throw the ball. Couldn't be more simple, right? And yet they spend their entire lives trying to master their craft. The slightest change in the height of your elbow, or the angle of your wrist during the sweep can make all the difference in the success of your roll. Practicing bad technique is not going to help you develop a reliable roll, so always strive for perfect technique.
 
My instructor never grabbed me to get me upright. At the very beginning, we were taught to lean forward and "grab the deck" rather than hang down like an anchor. Tapping the hull, alerted the instructor, and he or she grabbed the edge of the kayak and rotated us upright.

When assisting someone, I like them to brace on my hands and practice hip flicks. That way, I know how much down pressure they are using vs using the "snap".
 
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Cougarmeat, either method of righting the boat you mentioned will work without putting the paddler's shoulder at risk, and any qualified instructor will know that. My point is that a typical "pool session" is often a mix of people doing different things: One or two paddlers might be working with a qualified instructor, others might be off on their own without anyone assisting them, but many will be practicing their rolls with the assistance of someone who is NOT an instructor, and that's often when the damage is done. So my advice is simply to talk with your assistant about how they're going to help get you back upright before you flip upside down. In the rush to help a floundering paddler who's struggling to get back up, many non-instructors will automatically grab the paddler's elbow to pull them up. Since the paddler's elbow is already extended out from their torso, their shoulder is at extreme risk of being hyper-extended/injured.

To add to my first comment about practicing perfect technique, the goal of roll practice is to build up muscle memory to the point where your body just "knows what to do" when you're upside down. If you practice bad technique, then that's the muscle memory you're building and I can say from my own experience, that overcoming bad technique once it has been engrained into muscle memory is a difficult task.
 
JKA, 25 years ago, I was preparing to go down to Baja for a couple months of solo paddling so before the trip I spent a lot time in the local pool practicing rolling and various self-rescue techniques. Based on this practice, it was clear to me that if my roll failed, re-entry and roll was going to be my next method to try, and if that failed, then I'd revert to a paddle float rescue.

When I got down to Baja, however, I did some more rescue practice and soon discovered that my farmer John wetsuit and PFD gave me too much floatation to actually get under the boat for re-entry! Since I was so buoyant, the only way I could get my body back into the cockpit was to slide in on the surface of the water and then finish with a half-roll. However, that method resulted in three or four inches of water sloshing around in the cockpit, which meant re-entry and roll was a worse option than a paddle float rescue. During my pool practice before the trip, I was probably just wearing a swimsuit, so it was easy to re-enter the boat when it was upside down.

So my question to you is this: How do you re-enter your boat without flooding the cockpit? Whether I'm wearing a wetsuit OR a drysuit, when combined with my PFD, I'm simply too buoyant to get my whole body under the boat while it's upside down.

I'm really curious to find out how this technique works for you while you're wearing your normal paddling kit.
Thanks,
John
 
jamonte said:
I'm really curious to find out how this technique works for you while you're wearing your normal paddling kit.
Thanks,
John
Click to expand...
Great question John, and I'm rapt that you spent the time to dial in your R&R, before discovering that it didn't work for you.

First, I think you've highlighted the dangers of 'training effect', where we 'make' a technique work in limited circumstances and trust it to work in others. This is very evident in another of my interests, martial arts, where we have to challenge ourselves NOT to react in a trained way, as untrained people are likely to do anything! I know how to minimise damage to myself when a technique is applied to me and my training partner may anticipate that and react to it, setting them up to 'expect' that reaction.

Anyway, back to rolling.

A few caveats: I find that outrigger-style paddle-float rescues, that are conducted in 'real' conditions, often leave the kayak with lots of water in the cockpit. I largely discount the one-armed-shoulder-press-while-treading-water exercise to empty a kayak as a bit of a gimmick. Try that with a loaded kayak in lumpy water and 20+ knots. Better have an orthopaedic surgeon on speed-dial!

I acknowledge that the kayak is more stable to empty once the paddler is back in, because of the outrigger.

I have tried replacing my spray skirt while seated and upside down, as is the "Gold Standard". My breath hold ability doesn't allow that to be realistic AND I discovered that the kayak did not have much less water in it when that was done. It didn't scoop up more water, to my surprise. YMMV.

To your question about how to get in smoothly while wearing your normal paddling gear, (my summery of your query, my apologies if I have that wrong) I have a drill that I use. I'll try to explain it here.

If my kayak, when upside-down, is on my RIGHT side when facing the stern, I'm doing a RIGHT side roll. That means the RIGHT blade is facing forward. I'm holding the paddle, with the blade orientated correctly, in my LEFT hand, with my palm up and with my thumb inside the LEFT (closest to me) side of the upside-down cockpit. I will often slide the paddle shaft forward in my LEFT hand until the LEFT blade is touching my LEFT hand. My RIGHT hand is reaching under the kayak, holding the RIGHT side of the cockpit with my thumb inside, palm up. Remember, I'm still facing the stern.

I take a deep breath and drive myself under the water by extending my arms. With my arms straight, I bring my legs between my arms, into the cockpit and onto the foot pedals. I lock myself in place, reach up to the paddle with my RIGHT hand (my LEFT hand is still holding the paddle and cockpit) and roll.

The extended paddle roll (Pawlatta) helps due to the open cockpit slowing the rotation. If you have the breath-hold capacity you could replace the spray skirt prior to rolling. My concern is about letting go of the paddle in dynamic conditions to allow this.

There are two variations, one a choice, one sometimes forced as you mentioned. Some people have found an advantage to pause when they have straightened their arms, and actually come up into the cockpit to catch their breath. They then push away and summersault into position.

The other situation happens when as they extend their arms to push themselves under the water the kayak just rotates and they're on their side. This is frequent in lively conditions, and I think that's what you said happens to you when wearing your regular paddling gear. I have found that by doing the set-up as described, the time spent getting into the seated position is so quick it makes little difference.

So now you're upright, breathing air, but with no spray skirt and a kayak with water in the cockpit, in the same conditions that spat you out! Not ideal, so this is where all that training paddling a flooded kayak pays off!

I'm not being flippant: it's a bit grim but your whole situation is so you need redundancy. Thermal protection, bracing skills, friends nearby who have the skills to help, a low-volume cockpit, foot pumps, emergency communications...

If my R&R doesn't work (it didn't once in a real-world situation) I attach my paddle-float and do a paddle-float re-entry roll! Exactly as described before, except now I have the float to help the roll and as a brace when upright.

I have trained and practiced R&Rs in the wild tide races of Penrhyn Mawr, Anglessey, North Wales, and in the cold waters of Prince William Sound, Alaska. It failed (through a lack of practice and skills erosion) in my local waters in 10°C water and 30+ knot winds. I immediately switched to a paddle-float R&R and it worked like a charm. That was a great lesson.

I don't know if I've helped or added anything of value to the conversation, but I hope to encourage paddlers to consider what could really happen, and to plan and train accordingly.

An amateur trains until they can do something. A professional trains until they can't fail.

Cheers

John
 
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John,
I was only able, just once, to hold my breath long enough to attach the skirt upside down and roll up. It was amazing when it happened; now it seems like a dream.

If I'm in lumpy water, I may attach a paddle leash. It's always carried in my PFD pocket, but I've never used it. Once, crossing the Spieden Channel, I should have had it attached. Sometimes it's difficult to take my own advice.

The unpredictability of beginners is also evident in another combat field - chess. There are many courses one can buy and YouTube videos one can watch that promise a "How to win in 10 moves", type of opening strategy. The problem is, that their window of usefulness is very narrow. They are based on expected moves from the opponent. But beginners don't make those expected moves. They don't know enough about the game to put their pieces on the usual squares. And, in a short time, with some discipline and adhering to basic principles, a player moves beyond falling for these opening traps.
 
jamonte said:
JKA, 25 years ago, I was preparing to go down to Baja for a couple months of solo paddling so before the trip I spent a lot time in the local pool practicing rolling and various self-rescue techniques. Based on this practice, it was clear to me that if my roll failed, re-entry and roll was going to be my next method to try, and if that failed, then I'd revert to a paddle float rescue.

When I got down to Baja, however, I did some more rescue practice and soon discovered that my farmer John wetsuit and PFD gave me too much floatation to actually get under the boat for re-entry! Since I was so buoyant, the only way I could get my body back into the cockpit was to slide in on the surface of the water and then finish with a half-roll. However, that method resulted in three or four inches of water sloshing around in the cockpit, which meant re-entry and roll was a worse option than a paddle float rescue. During my pool practice before the trip, I was probably just wearing a swimsuit, so it was easy to re-enter the boat when it was upside down.

So my question to you is this: How do you re-enter your boat without flooding the cockpit? Whether I'm wearing a wetsuit OR a drysuit, when combined with my PFD, I'm simply too buoyant to get my whole body under the boat while it's upside down.

I'm really curious to find out how this technique works for you while you're wearing your normal paddling kit.
Thanks,
John
Click to expand...
John,

I experience this quite often when rolling with my neoprene tuilik on as well as in the winter, when I'm wearing fleece under the drysuit with the neo tuilik over that. I float like a bobber, so I have to enter the kayak more like you mention above. Once I'm in the cockpit and fully situated, I get a big breath of air, then use one hand to try to paddle myself fully upside down while holding the paddle in the other hand. Try to let the kayak settle upside down for a moment, if possible (sometimes easier said than done), then roll up.

Once up, I usually have less water in the cockpit than if I just re-enter and roll. I've practiced this winter rolling in the elements as well as in the pool and the results seem consistent.

I've had several instances where I've had to hand paddle down and around to the other side of the kayak in order to be able to roll up with the wind and waves.

Tony
 
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Thanks for this thread. I now recognize I should be:
- trying my R&R with PFD etc. not just nearly naked in the pool as I have been
- getting proper instruction to improve my somewhat shaky roll, not just practicing now and then
 
John and Tony, Thank you both very much for your descriptions of how to make re-entry and roll work in the real world. I'm going to wait for a nice, rough winter day and try out these techniques while wearing a drysuit and adequate insulation (buoyant!).

I was also thinking that a re-entry and roll might actually be easier to perform with a fully loaded boat because the boat won't move much when I push up on it in order to drive my body underneath the cockpit. Most of my sea kayaking is done solo, whether I'm day-tripping or out on a multi-day trip, so I will be excited if I can put the re-entry and roll back into my quiver of potential self-rescue techniques.

John
 
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