I got my Tern 14 kit.

Discussion in 'Boat and Accessory Building' started by sushiy, Nov 18, 2006.

  1. sushiy

    sushiy Paddler

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    I got my kit. Good move that I did not get the manual bofore the kit, and before my husband's aproval to use the garage.
    After reading 5 pages of it, he start running out of patient. Too late, garage and the project is mine!!

    Now my worry is,
    How do I keep my husband's sloppy job away from my baby? I know he just can't keep his hand off this little girl.

    Now, do I have to keep the garage over 55F all those 2 month, since the epoxy cures in the temp. above 55F?
     
  2. hairymick

    hairymick Paddler

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    Hi Sushiy,

    Good luck girl, Take your time, Read the manual several times before you start and post lots of questions.

    Re your husband, I suspect you might know well enough how to control him. :lol:

    I don't know about the temperature thing. it doesn't get that cold here.

    I for one, am looking forward to lot of progress reports and piccies on this one.
     
  3. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Pretty much. I did a Pygmy 10 years ago in an area that would drop into the 40's in between sessions, so I set up a heater that would raise the temp to about 65, and ran it for an hour before starting work.

    Here's the rub: the wood will out-gas for quite a while after one of these abrupt temperature rises, so you need to turn the heat OFF as you start glassing or a saturation coat of resin, so the wood is DROPPING in temp as you work, and continues to drop slowly as the resin cures. This causes the wood to draw resin into its pores, sealing it.

    If you don't observe this protocol, you will have hundreds of tiny pinholes in the resin job, and your boat will never finish right. I think this may be detailed in the Pygmy manual.

    One other thing I did was to use fast hardener. The standard speed hardener (medium) is a lot slower, and it may take two days to cure instead of one at cooler temps.
     
  4. DarenN

    DarenN Paddler

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    Dave;
    have you actually seen outgassing problems on plywood? i've seen it on strippers, but never on plywood. this could be my dumb luck, but i suspect that the thin veneer layer, then a sealed glue layer, stop the gasses from rising to the surface.

    Sushiy;
    for glueing and epoxy work you need to control the temp, and for comfort. when you are not working on the boat, you don't really need to heat the workshop. it's not a 'garage' anymore. :D

    DarenN.......
     
  5. Mark_Schilling

    Mark_Schilling Paddler

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    I was just going to say that - as soon as the cars move out and the boat moves in, it transforms from a garage to a workshop!

    Well done sushiy - you're going to love every step of building this boat (well, unless you decide to finish it with LPU - you may not love that part so much). :? There were many times along the way that I wanted to slow down - I was having so much fun building it that I didn't want it to be finished!

    Now that mine is finished, I just love paddling it. The forecast here for tomorrow is 35 knots - time to get wet! 8O :D
     
  6. mewisemagic

    mewisemagic Paddler

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    Congrats Sushiy!
    I just finished removing the sutures on my AT17. Keep us updated on the build.
     
  7. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Oh, yes, on the first sng boat I built, before I understood the problem.

    No issues after I successfully sealed the veneer, at all. The problem occurred during the initial saturation coat because the stitched boat sat in a huge, cold shop (40 F) for a couple weeks before I got around to laying resin on the bare wood. I began heating the shop up when I started, so the resin would flow. The shop was maybe 55 when I was done rolling and tipping the saturation coat on, and I left the heat on overnight so the resin would cure. Wrong move. When I went back a couple days later, there were dozens and dozens of pinholes. I thought they would close up when I glassed -- nope, they just got deeper! (My thinking was that each of these little voids was the "escape hatch" for gases spread over a large area of veneer, so there was a lot of gas to come out each small hole.)

    To get them out, I had to hit each one a bit with sandpaper, because there was amine blush on the surface. I was using fast hardener, which I think S3 says is worse for blush.

    After that, I moved to a smaller room in that building and did the rest on top of a pool table, using baseboard heat that I could turn on an hour before starting work. Then I'd turn the heat off when I started using resin, and the room temp would fall slowly as I worked, and fell further over 24 hours. Next day, same thing all over again. If it had been my shop, I'd have paid the bill to heat it 24-7, but it was a buddy's building.

    Second sng boat I did in my garage, and I could control the heat -- no pinholes.
     
  8. sushiy

    sushiy Paddler

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    Wow! Thank you for all your response.
    Let me see if I understand the temperature thing well.

    I should heat up the garage..ooops! my shipyard to about 65F or so before I start working on glass and epoxy, turn down the heat so temp. goes down ( but not to below 55F)slowly through the session and after while it is hardening overnight.
    Since it takes a few days it to cure, because I have to bring the temperature up, I should not work on the the other epoxy project during that time, right? Or it is OK to do it after certain stage?
     
  9. DarenN

    DarenN Paddler

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    thanks Dave;
    like i said; my dumb luck.

    Sushiy;
    you'll need to warm up the boat and the epoxy as well as the shop before you start your epoxy work. this is what i do in my shop with wood heat. i light a big fire in the stove and let it burn while i get everthing ready. lay out my brushes, squeegies, and rollers, a couple pairs af latex gloves, my respirator, mixing cups and stir sticks, paper towels. by this time it's probably about seventy-five degrees near the stove and a bit cooler at the other end of the shop. i'll then damp the fire right down, and start work. the temp starts to fall almost immediately, but slowly. i start at the far end and work towards the stove end of the boat. by the time i've finished spreading epoxy it's probably about sixty to sixty-five degrees in the shop and still falling. clean up tools, turn off lights, lock up the shop and go in the house. in twenty-four hours the epoxy is cured enough to start with fiberglassing.
    tip..... keep your epoxy in the house so it's warm when you use it.

    hope that helps;
    DarenN........
     
  10. sushiy

    sushiy Paddler

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    I glued first 2pairs of the panels. Controling the temperature is tricky in my uninsulated workshop. I turned off the stove and it fell from 70F to 58F in 2 hours! I was afraid it will go down below 55F soon. So I turn the stove on and now it is 62F. I don't know if it get bubbles. Hopefully, the wood retained the heat and didn't gain too much. I'll see it tomorrow.

    :?: :?: :?: Mixing the epoxy was tricky too. To transfer the #1 & #2 from cups to mixing container, how do you get it all out? I wormed it, but it still stuck in the cup. and I'm afraid the mix ratio is a little off.
    Should I just pump them out directly into the mixint container if only a small amount is needed?

    Oh well, this is my first epoxying, and it is on small pieces. If it did not go well, I can sand it off and try again right?
     
  11. DarenN

    DarenN Paddler

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    two ways to measure epoxy.
    in the first i made a measuring cup, calibrated with one cup nested inside the other. pour in resin to the first line and add hardener to the second line. (these are for 3/1 ratio epoxy).
    in the second i can measure any small amount i like with the calibrated syringes. just invert the bottle and draw out what i need, then transfer it into a cup for mixing.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    DarenN......
     
  12. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Firstly, use cups that are mainly flat on the bottom and then use a stick that is cut square on the end (so that you can get into the corners of the bottom of the cup), tongue depressors with the end cut off work well for scraping all the epoxy out and for mixing.

    You can, but from my experience the pumps will "burb" at some point (usually when the level of epoxy or hardener in the bottle is getting low). What I mean by "burping" is that some air will come out when the pump is pressed down -- this is very bad as you won't know how much the mix ratio is out. It's best not to use the pumps for anything but dispensing the epoxy and hardener. Use syringes as DarenN suggests for small amounts. I use this method as well and it's very accurate for small amounts.

    Remember that the mix ratio of System 3 epoxy (that comes with your Pygmy kit) is 2:1 (DarenN uses a different brand of epoxy).


    Well, yeah... but it won't be fun.

    *****
     
  13. sushiy

    sushiy Paddler

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    I like the mustard and ketchap tube and syringes idea. I will try it.

    I truely wish I did practiced how to control the temperature before the epoxying.
    But it is OK. I did only 2 pairs of panels.

    :?: If it get bubbles ( most likely, it will happen to me), how do you fix it? Is it possible to fix it without scraping and sanding all the glass tape and epoxy? This spot is inside and under the seat, so I can live with some imperfection. Can I sand lightly and layer epoxy over those "broken bubbles?
     
  14. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Rule #1: Don't worry about problems until you need to. :wink:

    *****
     
  15. Doug

    Doug Paddler

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    Rule #2: the first step in solving a problem is that you have to create it. 8)
     
  16. sushiy

    sushiy Paddler

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    Yap, I got those broken bubbles like craters. But Pygmy says just aply epoxy over it. I should do it tommorow morning, so that I don't have to sand inside of those craters.
    Other than that, those panel looks fine :D :D

    Tommorow ( my day off), I will spread all the panel and and do all the glueing the butt joint and baby sit all day checking the temperature.
     
  17. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Pictures?

    *****
     
  18. Doug

    Doug Paddler

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    Here's what I did for all of my cold temp epoxy work.
    1. epoxied in the evening as the temps cooled.
    2. bought a radiant heater that was over top of where I was working (see link below). All the wood would be nice and warm with the lamp on. I would turn off the lamp and apply the epoxy. I didn't use any other heater.

    You don't want to babysit a couple of butt joints on your day off do you?

    BTW, the S3 2:1 epoxy is quite forgiving. I've even eyeballed some mixtures and they cured fine. I'm not suggesting that you do something like that, but just pointing out how much room for error you have.

    heating lamp:
    http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=44590&cat=1,43456,43465

    Another Tern14 blog: http://www.dryfly.ca/blog/category/tern-14/
     
  19. sushiy

    sushiy Paddler

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    I did all the panels layed out on the floor to glue. I almost forgot to put the wax paper under neath :oops:
    My keel panels dose not totaly close all the way, 1.5" of the seam has a little gap ( 1mm). I called Pygmy, and they figure out that I can fill it up with epoxy. They wanted to see what I mean VIA Email photo, but I am a woman of the stone age. I don't have a digital camera...

    I did all the glueing of the day ( one side of those pairs to butt joined to make full length one). And the temp looks great. Nice and toasty to start and holding the heat without going up :D

    Happy with the temp, I went to get my first digital camera. Rain was pouring hard, and harder in Seattle. Came back to find a pond right in 5" from the garage door which is only 2 feet from the tip of my boat 8O :!: 8O A flood never happened there, but only 2 feet away from my panel? and I can't move the panel next 24 hours! I scooped the clog on the drain and water as much as possible, and rain stoped and the pond shrank :D I did not know the flood control is a part of the kayak building process.

    Good thing I don't have to cook the American Thanksgiving dinner tomorrow and Thursday( Thanksgiving in USA). I will glue the other side on the Thanksgiving Day and start drilling the holes this weekend. I hope.
    Oh, and I will set up the camera thing on the conputer really soon.
     
  20. hairymick

    hairymick Paddler

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    G'day Sushey,

    Looking forward to some piccies here. :D

    Howz it going, keeping hubby away from your baby? :D