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Kayaking and Staph infection?

rider

Paddler
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
1,859
Location
Coquitlam,BC
So,long story short, last 2 times I went kayak camping I ended up with a serious enough staph infection that started at my left foot. First time was during the Broken group trip at end of August 09', second this past weekend. This time i knew what I was dealing with and caught it much faster so i am hoping for a much quicker recovery.
I've done many overnight/long weekend trips by kayak before, and gone camping,though not by kayak in between the first and second infection, and nothing.
As the only real common thread to all this, i suspect wearing the neoprene socks may be a contributing factor( I wear a drytop/wetsuit combo).
Any similar experiences? Any suggested solutions?
So far my doctor recommended Glide(Bodyglide?) that's basically a skin lubricant against chafing, but the neo socks never really chafed. But i suspect that a closed,warm sealed bit of water around your foot for many hours a day would help bacteria multiply?
 
That is very unusual.

Some daily foot hygiene (wash them in an antibacterial soap and keep them dry as much as possible after paddling) would be a good idea. Also, did they try to culture it? It would be good to know which variety it is. If it is one of the "superbug" varieties, that could go bad fast on a longer trip. More than MRSA out there. If it is MRSA, you might ask youp physician for antibiotics to keep in your medical kit when you go on a long trip -- might be very hard to get the ones used for MRSA, I suspect.

Cleaning the wet suit booties between uses would be a good idea, also.
 
Although they have not cultured it, from the treatment history of the first experience, it's safe to say it is not the 'superbug' variety (as per my doctor). Though according to same doctor, and as evident in progress, the stuff is very agressive.
I always wash hose out the neoprene socks after every use,(when i get home) and often enough use soap as well. When on a trip, I always change into dry socks and real shoes when I get to camp and change.
Antibacterial soap wash while on a trip is probably a good idea as well.
 
I wonder if a very thin sock (inside the neo sock) would help?
Aren't some of them made with small amounts of silver?

What part of your foot is affected?
Perhaps a sock would wick water away from the sole of your foot (if that's the problem area).
 
Staph infection... not in my world.

Athletes foot can sometimes hit me... again similar conditions... warm, damp.

In my drysuit, I generally wear a normal wool or synthetic sock inside, with mesh sneaker/sandle/things over top... this keeps my feet warm, but also lets them dry. I think if I wore booties or neopreane all day my feet would rot.
 
Do you have to have a open wound (torn blister, cut, ingrown toenail etc...) to get a staph infection or can you get it right through the skin? I wear a pair of neoprene booties all the time and have my feet in them for several hours at a time when I paddle.

Should I switch to a more breathable type of wet-shoe?

Astoria-Dave,
You amaze me sometimes on the wide array of subjects you seem to have knowledge on. I really learn a lot from your posts, but I have to say some of them go over my head a bit :oops: , But keep them coming, I can use the schooling :shock:

Greg
 
Ryder

you should try one of the local pool sessions and wear your boots and socks. i find the chlorine seems to keep the boots fresh (it may shorten the life of them)

not sure if chlorine would kill staff bacteria

my boots start to stink up over the summer when i dont go to pool sessions

rob
 
rider said:
But i suspect that a closed,warm sealed bit of water around your foot for many hours a day would help bacteria multiply?

I know a bit about bacteria but I'm not a doctor or even close and the interactions between bacteria and humans can be complex, so much of this is hand-waving, but here's a go at it. A warm moist environment is exactly what bacteria need to grow. You are probably on the right track with washing with soap: both your feet and the booties. Keeping your feet clean and dry and changing socks often can only really help. Perhaps in the summertime you could try wearing sandals or mesh swimming shoes so that your feet can be more dry?

Alcohol based hand sanitizer might help lower bacterial counts. It may be that you never fully cleared the last infection, and given a chance, the strong ones that survived took hold. But you say that you have been taking care to get dried out and cleaned up, so what's left? Maybe increasing probiotics in your diet? More garlic? Personally, I don't think antibacterial soap is a good idea with staph involved (especially in light of the MRSA strains). In general terms you could end up killing off the staph that is resistant to the antibacterial agents in the soap and end up with a community enriched for the hardier resistant bugs. Soap is, in and of itself, antibacterial. As a note: chlorine is added to swimming pools to kill off most of everyone's bugs, but you can also get (and pass on) infections from swimming pools. To achieve that sort of affect you could soak your socks in a bleach solution. I think vinegar might work too.
 
Rider;
i don't know if this will be helpfull or not but i wear Chota boots when paddling. my feet stay dry.
i'll often just roll the tops down and just keep on wearing them around camp.
Daren......
 
VanIslePaddler said:
Staph infection... not in my world.

Athletes foot can sometimes hit me... again similar conditions... warm, damp.

In my drysuit, I generally wear a normal wool or synthetic sock inside, with mesh sneaker/sandle/things over top... this keeps my feet warm, but also lets them dry. I think if I wore booties or neopreane all day my feet would rot.

I have immersion foot that comes back as soon as it gets damp and stays damp. Too many years of marching/hiking in boots for too many hours and not having the time to change socks. The life of a soldier!
 
Not an expert on infections at all. I Googled up "recurrent staph infections" and found many apparently authoritative sources. This one seemed most pertinent: http://tinyurl.com/acqnkh (go down a screen for the regime).

Need to dispel one misconception, however: disinfecting with an antibacterial soap does not selectively kill one type of staph -- kills all varieties, dead! OTOH, treating a staph infection with antibiotics without the benefit of a culture showing the type of staph might lead to development of a resistant form if the incorrect antibiotic is used (or if the treatment regime is not followed to its end). With the increasing incidence of antibiotic-resistant strains, it might be good to get a culture on a recurrent strain ... and this advice is from a guy who is NOT a physician and has NO special expertise in this area. Just repeating stuff learned from the Google sources I found, such as the one above.

If I were in rider's situation, I'd get a culture, and go through some of the steps advised in the link above, "treating" the footwear and sox used this last trip, as a minimum. Doug Lloyd can show you some interesting scars from his episode with a flesh-eating bacterium, for motivation, if a person wants to see it!
 
I have horrible feet and the booties give me grief!

I rinse my booties my mouthwash - MUST be antibacterial kind like Listerine or Fake listerine. This helps keep the stink out too! I take mouthwash to rinse with if the trip is over a few days long. Only caveat is that if you use too much, you may want to rinse your boots with fresh water. If they can't dry and the liquid is in the boot it can be an irritant. People cure foot fungus and everything with this stuff so it may help. :mrgreen: It certainly helped my feet stay healthier.
 
Astoriadave said:
Need to dispel one misconception, however: disinfecting with an antibacterial soap does not selectively kill one type of staph -- kills all varieties, dead!

I work in microbiology research and not in health, but I very much doubt that any antibacterial soap or antibacterial agent that you could apply to the skin will kill all varieties, ever, and certainly not with the commercially available dosages and the contact time applied by the average user. There is emerging evidence that antibacterial soap is no better than regular soap and could have potential dangers. http://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/hotnews/32h138409.html

Obviously, there are cases (like such an infection) where you might want to bring out the big guns, but normal healthy skin is colonized with helpful bacteria that keep unhelpful ones out and you don't want to keep killing them off.

Minty fresh booties sound like fun! :cool
 
Rider - I would recommend getting out of the neoprene socks ASAP after paddling. Turn them inside out, wring'em out and try to dry them, either in the sun, or over a fire, and/or maybe wipe them with hand sanitizer (or mouthwash?) before putting them back on. The main thing is to reduce the time your feet are wet/damp. If you are paddling several hours per day, you might think about having alternate footwear. I have worn all kinds of different paddling footwear, but the last couple of years I have been wearing Crocs/Holey Soles for paddling, with or without neoprene socks, and also around camp, with or without wool socks. Seems slightly goofy, but these shoes work great for me - very comfy, good foot protection, zero water absorption, fast dry, quite warm despite the holes, and when worn without socks, feet can air dry. I also have high top neoprene boots, and while they keep my feet dry for a while, it doesn't take long before they get wet (and stay wet) inside - they are almost impossible to dry out while on a trip.
 
I'd guess that because rider has had a recurrence of this, the bad guys are resident somewhere on his feet. The dope I get from my medical sources is that a lot of us harbor bad guys (even MRSA) on our skins, inside our noses, etc. If it were me, I'd be dosing my feet with something to knock everything back down, after a period in which the warm, moist, protein-rich (e.g., skin) environment bacteria love has been their home.

As Blondie has pointed out, the beneficial bacteria get whacked, also. Not a good thing, for sure.

Funny coincidence here is that I've been taking a probiotic supplement daily these last 3-4 months to knock down a lactose intolerance problem ... the idea being that the good guys in the supplement (a Bactillus coagulans developed to break carbos down to lactic acid) take over and populate the gut to dominate the bad guys. This has been the only therapy/diet revision successful in treating my lactose intolerance. So, maybe there is a therapy which would take a page from that and rider could smear a good bacteria salve over his tootsies, and he'd be good to go.

Whacky? Maybe. I sure don't know. :? :yikes:
 
If you have been re-infected, then you are contacting a source of staphylococcus bacteria You need to find that source before your next tip. The statical chance of the 2 infections being random events must be very low.
The bacteria source is either your self or something you come into contact with or walk thru.
Getting a bacterial infection is difficult. One lone cell will have extreme difficulty infecting you (the exception is an agar plate). It takes a lot of any bacteria to latch on and make you sick.
I would not risk a third staph infection!

If all else fails boil or auto-clave your boots.

Roy
 
Astoriadave said:
Not an expert on infections at all. I Googled up "recurrent staph infections" and found many apparently authoritative sources. This one seemed most pertinent: http://tinyurl.com/acqnkh (go down a screen for the regime).

Need to dispel one misconception, however: disinfecting with an antibacterial soap does not selectively kill one type of staph -- kills all varieties, dead! OTOH, treating a staph infection with antibiotics without the benefit of a culture showing the type of staph might lead to development of a resistant form if the incorrect antibiotic is used (or if the treatment regime is not followed to its end). With the increasing incidence of antibiotic-resistant strains, it might be good to get a culture on a recurrent strain ... and this advice is from a guy who is NOT a physician and has NO special expertise in this area. Just repeating stuff learned from the Google sources I found, such as the one above.

If I were in rider's situation, I'd get a culture, and go through some of the steps advised in the link above, "treating" the footwear and sox used this last trip, as a minimum. Doug Lloyd can show you some interesting scars from his episode with a flesh-eating bacterium, for motivation, if a person wants to see it!

For touring, I take along a fucidic acid cream like Fucidin H cream. I have other stuff too, including high-potency melaleuca alternifolia (Tea Tree Oil) and oral Clindamycin, helpful for methicillin-resistant staphylococcus aureus.

I'd rather paddle north of the 61st parallel than anything equatorial. Freya was fortunate not to contract anything contagious or even deal with much tinea pedis, though she did get some good skin rashes.

I've switched to Mukluks from the shorter, cheapie wet suit booties I used to wear. With a good thick liner sock (with rotating supply on a trip) and the lining in the higher quality booties, I've done well. Good foot hygiene is not an option for me expeditioning from a kayak.

I do have a propensity toward athlete’s foot, with the severity being between toes in the web space. These cracks can lead to other problems.

In my profession as a medical adjudicator, I deal with a lot of out of country travel claims; I can assure you that there's a fair bit of stuff out there that can get you rather unexpectedly.

As for serious infections for paddlers, I can also assure you through direct experience and the experience of friends that staph, cellulitis, and other infectious diseases are not something you want to tangle with - worse than your worst nightmare - at worst, and possibly a huge inconvenience and major worry at best. Consequences can be lifelong.

Good, wilderness first aid training is important for paddlers on multi-day excursions, and any sign of impending serious infection, red streaking, fever, etc., may be cause for immediate evacuation if definitive medical treatment isn’t available. And even when it is, clinicians mis-diagnose, so educate yourselves proactively.

I was glad to see waverider head for the clinic at the 2010 WCP campout and even return with a watertight protection arrangement for his infected finger.

I almost lost my life a few years ago, if not just my leg. Good overall health at the time probably helped. I was heavy into weight training, stationary rowing, and ad hoc storm paddling year round. Many who contract infections aren't so lucky. Co-morbidities can mitigate againt good outcomes. I fear the things I can't see. The sea, I just try and respect.

Here's a shot of my leg shortly after debridement for necrotizing fasciitis:



Here's the leg sometime after grafting after ICU discharge and extended antibiotic therapy through a PICC line into the heart. It took almost 2 months in the hospital to clear the acute phases, with a month in the burn unit (though my nurse was the sister of Alexandra Morton so that was fun for someone who thrives living on the edge).



So, take care boys and girls.

Doug L
 

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