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Knots and deck rigging

Mark_Schilling

Mark_Schilling

Paddler
Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Messages
4,552
Location
"Home by the Sea" - Nanaimo, BC
Not having attended Boy Scouts as a child, I don't have much experience with different knots. Can anyone recommend what knots I should use to tie my shock cord to the web loops that are my soft padeyes, and also the deck rigging to the padeyes? I want a knot that doesn't 'squish' the padeye loop together, but is also small and reasonably attractive.

Another option I have for the deck rigging is to make a continuous loop around the perimeter of the deck, including past the cockpit sides, and simply tie the two ends together with something like a sheet bend, but I don't know if I want the deck lines to continue past the cockpit coaming.
 
I would have to reccommend a bowline. It is easily tied through a loop, provides the most strength (85% of line strength), is easy to untie if need be in the future, yet holds steady and won't come undone it's own:

bowline.jpg


The big loop in step one is where it goes through the padeye.
 
Mark_Schilling said:
Another option I have for the deck rigging is to make a continuous loop around the perimeter of the deck, including past the cockpit sides, and simply tie the two ends together with something like a sheet bend,
Click to expand...
I'd opt for that. I believe the approved knot is called the grapevine bend (aka double fisherman's bend): http://home.earthlink.net/~ecjoe/id8.html (down 6 or 7 screens) or http://www.layhands.com/knots/Knots_Ben ... ermansKnot (wait a while for drawings to appear).

I've used this a lot in bungie cord, and it holds well, and is readily untied in bungie, not so in climbing rope. A little bulky, but not annoyingly so.
 
Dan_Millsip said:
I think deck lines should be separate -- if it fails on one side, you don't want it failing on the other.

*****
Click to expand...

The deck lines will not be separate between each side - the bow deck line will be one continuous piece on the port and starboard sides of the boat. But I have an option as to whether I want to make one line for the bow (forward of the cockpit) and a separate one for the stern (starting on each side, aft of the cockpit). If I do that, I'll have to tie the line to each 'corner' padeye (ie the 4 padeyes closest to the cockpit), and all those knots could make it a bit ugly.

The other option is to use one continuous piece of line that goes all the way around the perimeter of the boat - past both sides of the cockpit - and just tie the two ends together (doesn't have to be at a padeye). That would make it 'ckeaner' (ie not so many knots!) but it might look odd having a deck line along the sides of the cockpit as well. And, as you say, if it fails somewhere, your entire deck line is compromised.
 
Peel said:
I would have to reccommend a bowline. It is easily tied through a loop, provides the most strength (85% of line strength), is easy to untie if need be in the future, yet holds steady and won't come undone it's own:

The big loop in step one is where it goes through the padeye.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... tried that one. It's a good knot - very secure - but it's almost impossible to keep the deck line tight while you form and tighten the knot, because of the loop it does before it enters the padeye.
 
first, don't use a bungee for a deck line - why have something that will stretch to 2x its whole length(that's what bungee does), just when you don't want it to when you're (or whoever yr rescuing) under extreme pressure. like if its down one side, it's conceivable that in desparation you can pull about 5 feet out sideways, if down 2 sides it's conceivable that you could pull out more than double that!!

you want something positive to hang onto. just use bungee for cross deck in front of cockpit, paddlepark beside maybe and other xdeck locations where you put gear/paddle under. everything else - decklines, paddle outriggerlock - has got to be fixed and firm.
those criss crossed bungees you see behind the cockpit of 1000's of yaks are a total useless joke.

so pls dont use a bungee crisscross there or i'll get my little swiss army knife scissors out at the portland wcp trip, heh heh.

2nd - i agree w/ dan. make separate pces so that there is redundancy. one failure dont fail all.

there are lots of options, but what if you drilled a hole 6in or whatever in front of the front bungee and the same near the cockpit. knot line, thread from under the front location. when pulled thru, seal w/ polyurethane at the front hole . then thread thru half the webloops to another hole near cockpit, which is easy to thread into and finish any way you want, slackish or tightish. then repeat for stern and the other 2 on the other side.

or also could start from the endgrab or endgrab locations

making it continuous down one side is unusual - and may not work too well with webloops as the centre ones may go backwards into the ctr of the yak under tension. like its best if they're in a straightish line for webloops - so therefore 2 pces ea side.

and if use real line, the knots are legion.

if have hard points like recessed, etc, then doesnt matter so much and conceivably could run continuous.

anyway some ideas.

ps:
if use bungee, then for xdeck situations, as under less duress, can use the cover foldback and foldover technique where bungee hardly changes in diameter. like the nylon cover is folded back, rubber clipped, ends place together, nylon cover unfolded over other side (just like a tiny condom, ha ha) and zap or epoxy glue in place. if fussy, scarf the rubber.
 
Mick dissed cross-deck bungies behind the cockpit, which is justified in the usual OEM factory installation, I agree. I ramped mine up quite a bit in diameter and stretched them tight so when used to hold a paddle blade for paddlefloat self rescue, they actually work, in rough conditions. They are so tight, bananas in a lunch bag die, bad! :lol:

I agree that bungie for deck lines does not work. Better to use polyester line -- quarter inch or so in diameter for good handling. Nylon will stretch when wet.
 
Mick, I think you mis-understood. I'm not using bungees as deck lines (of course!) - I have reflective line for that. But the deck lines are sharing some of the same web loops as the cross-deck bungees. :?

I think what I'm going to try is just knotting the deck line at the end of the web loop, to stop the end from being able to thread back thru the loop. :idea: It's clean, a small knot, doesn't scrunch up the web loop or affect the cross-deck bungee. And that way, I'll use two deck lines - one forward and one aft of the cockpit.

And I had considered your other option, but I've firmly decided against drilling any more holes in the boat! :wink:

I have a total of 12 web loops - one at each end of the boat (for deck lines only - a bow painter may have a spliced loop around the forward deck line), then a pair forward of the front hatch (holding a spare paddle), 2 pairs in front of the cockpit (for a criss-cross pattern of bungee), a pair behind the cockpit (for a single loop of bungee, 3/4" apart), and a pair behind the rear hatch (probably won't get used much, but what the heck).

And, although I haven't tried this from the boat yet, I think the rear hatch may be close enough to the cockpit (remember how short the boat is!) that I might be able to use it as a day hatch as well! 8O
 
sorry, did misunderstand. saw 'bungee' and not 'deckline' as well.

the rest make sense to me.

sounds close to getting wet!
 
Something which helps to avoid confusion in stressful moments is having your lifelines [decklines if you must] a different colour than your bungees.
It's also helpfull to use as heavy a bungee as your comfortable with. The bigger round it is, the easier it is to grab, and the better it will hold

You may want to reconsider rigging lifelines which run past the cockpit. Almost no one does this any longer as people have been trapped and killed by boats rigged that way. The reason for having lifelines, is so that you or someone assisting you can grab hold of your boat, and the coaming of the cockpit is much easier to grab than a peice of cordage.

Criss cross bungee rigs are very practicle for securing loose kit temporarily whilst at sea. They also provide added tension for holding your spare paddles etc. on deck. Numerous european sea kayak manufacturers rig thier front and rear decks with nets for holding odds and ends. Keeping in mind the paddle float and it's associated rigging is almost exclusively a product of the north american paddling culture.

As for the marlinespike seamanship try and Google "animated knots by grog" It's a very cool site
 
Man, I noticed in the above pic, my boat is dirty. There has been lots of tree parts blowing around this week. :lol:

Anyway, here is how I did my bungie X and self rescue setup. I used 1" webbing. The ends of the webbing are positioned so the bungie pulls the excess tight.

OK, I'll admit it......I don't have a roll yet. :oops:

x.JPG


knot free bungie ends:
bungie-end.jpg

Free Image Hosting
 
It is time for some deck rigging on my Pygmy and I have a question about the rear bungee-self-rescue setup. I have two ideas and would love some feedback:

1. Use a double bungee setup for holding a paddle during self rescue. This is common on most new fiberglass boats.

2. Use a piece of webbing instead of the double bungee mentioned above. I've even seen some setups like this with a quick release buckle for removing your paddle after rescue...

Thoughts?
 
Hey Michael, I retrofitted Seawards SRS system to my poly Capella and I find it works well. If I remember correctly they charged me $40-50 Can for it. It provides a stronger set-up than bungees and can be released relatively easily.

Brad
 
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