Nick Schade Kayak Stroke Simulator

Oceaneer said:
some interesting opinion and discussion on this fb page https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1JFqAicYC8/
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That FB video was about NEVER changing paddle length, with many commenters dissenting.
Here's a link to an interesting video talking about the interaction of the stroke type (what one online coach calls the 'pathing') - low angle 'horizontal' sweep, high angle 'vertical' parallel to the boat, wing paddle stroke angling away from the boat - and the paddle length.
It's recorded on-water so the soundtrack has a lot of wind noise.
The presenter has a very experimental approach to paddling and has some interesting ("well, I hadn't thought of THAT!" :) ) videos.
In this video he points out that you can easily experiment with paddle length by just offsetting your hands on the paddle shaft, making the paddle on one side long and on the other side, short. So you can compare the effort and feel of the left and right 'paddles' to do a sort of A/B comparison.
 
ELS said:
When I paddle with the Cypress, I keep my upper hand high throughout the stroke, which ends just after my hip. A dropping hand would reflect a lack of rotation at the hip.
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There are SO many variables! See in my case, my top hand drops, and that is not because I'm not rotating at the hips; it's because I paddle with much straighter arms than most people. Out of curiousity @ELS do you paddle with the classic 90-degree bend in your arms? Because I think (but need to try it) that's the only way you could possibly rotate while keeping your hand high and doing that "straight line across".

Then again, it probably has to do with how far back the blade goes before recovery. My blade definitely goes well past my hips. I keep reading that this is inefficient...but as I've said elsewhere, I can maintain 5mph/4.3kts for hours doing this, so it's obviously not causing any significant drag for me. And I think (again, I haven't empirically tested any of this) this is because as I rotate toward the power side, the blade ends up almost parallel to the side of the boat, with the blade edges oriented vertically so there is very little "pulling water up" at the end of the stroke. I just slice it cleanly out of the water.
 
MarkVK said:
To me, a related, interesting question this raises is whether (for multi-hour paddling sessions) different paddles and paddling techniques have significantly different efficiencies at the effort levels I can sustain, or whether the differences in efficiency are only significant at power outputs beyond my capability. I see a lot of arguments that top athletes use wing paddles, so wing paddles must be more efficient -- but those arguments don't necessarily mean that they are significantly more efficient at the power output where I paddle.
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Great point. I wonder about this all the time. Specifically, many have observed how flatwater racers (using wings) often appear to pause very briefly (we're talking tenths of a second) at the end of each stroke before the recover and next catch.

What I'd love to test (but haven't) is whether adding this slight pause can save significant energy (over distance) while barely slowing you down at all—because that short pause allows the boat to glide at (or near) top speed before speed drops off.

I tend to paddle with zero pause—my recovery is very smooth and fast so that I'm almost always pulling one or the other blade with virtually no pause (e.g. as one blade is coming out of the water I'm catching with the forward blade).

So I've often wondered, is this overkill? LOL Adding that longer pause between strokes might be much more efficient?
 
Whew, I'm struggling to keep up in this discussion! LOL (But it's all good.)

I think a lot of this paddling efficiency vs. technique discussion comes down to individual fitness. If you're strong and used to paddling at 80-90% for long periods of time, you're likely going to be faster (even over distances) than someone who isn't used to that. (No matter what paddle or technique you use.)

Though I can maintain a 5mph/4.3knokts average speed for 2-3 hours, I doubt I could do it all day. But my thinking is pretty simple: if I can maintain 5mph/4.3kts for 2-3 hours, I'm certain I can maintain 4.6mph/4kts for 5-6 hours...and equally certain I can maintain 4mph/3.5kts for 8-10hrs.

Using a wing blade might add 30mins to those numbers? Or maybe only 5-10mins...I doubt it would suddenly enable me to maintain 4.5 knots for 10 hours.

Just for context, all my upper body strength comes from paddling. I can't stand lifting weights (at home or in a gym) and rarely do it. So while I'm strong, I'm not a ripped Greek god with six-pack abs and rock-hard pecs like most top kayak racers are, LOL. But I have spent (easily) 10,000 hours on the water paddling hard over the years, so the muscles that count most (back and shoulders) are plenty strong.
 
SWriverstone said:
Specifically, many have observed how flatwater racers (using wings) often appear to pause very briefly (we're talking tenths of a second) at the end of each stroke before the recover and next catch.
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I used to paddle with a guy that would take a brief (half to full second) pause every stroke cycle (i.e., only on one side or the other). I never really discussed it with him but wondered if that brief rest was beneficial or not- from any aspect- endurance or efficiency... (likely not speed)
 
SWriverstone said:
I keep reading that this is inefficient...but as I've said elsewhere, I can maintain 5mph/4.3kts for hours doing this, so it's obviously not causing any significant drag for me.
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Marathon K1 paddlers average 8.5mph over 2+ hours, using standard/modern surfski/K1 paddling technique. and you are likely as strong as many of those paddlers. They are using much faster boats, but still... you may be throwing away a lot of power/speed/endurance.
K1 and surfski paddlers and coaches have done a lot of testing and data collection; I tend to respect their results and recommendations.
 
SWriverstone said:
that short pause allows the boat to glide at (or near) top speed before speed drops off.
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Yes, I think it might help save a bit of energy, even with a sea kayak.
I assume that a K1 or surfski might have a more efficient glide, but a loaded sea kayak has more momentum so it's probably something to think about incorporating into my stroke.
 
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SWriverstone said:
.I doubt it would suddenly enable me to maintain 4.5 knots for 10 hours.
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The R2AK race is about 750 miles and I watched some videos by Yota Kano ('Team Rainy') the other day. He finished the R2AK in 18 days, paddling a Taran sea kayak (loaded with food and camping gear) and using a wing paddle. He paddled with 'Lets Wing It' (also in a Taran, using a wing) who finished with the same time. So that's a pretty high mileage, day after day. I noticed that he had at least one 90 km day on his return trip from Ketchikan to Prince Rupert.
IMO, Yota Kano has a really nice-looking paddle technique.
 
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JohnAbercrombie said:
The R2AK race is about 750 miles and I watched some videos by Yota Kano ('Team Rainy') the other day. He finished the R2AK in 18 days, paddling a Taran sea kayak (loaded with food and camping gear) and using a wing paddle. He paddled with 'Lets Wing It' (also in a Taran, using a wing) who finished with the same time. So that's a pretty high mileage, day after day. I noticed that he had at least one 90 km day on his return trip from Ketchikan to Prince Rupert.
IMO, Yota Kano has a really nice-looking paddle technique.
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I watched some of his videos as well. I agree entirely that his stroke looks great -- super smooth and efficient. I noticed in one video that a powerboat passenger pacing alongside them calls out, "5 knots!" and they didn't look like they were paddling extraordinarily hard. Really impressive stuff! I wonder which size of Jantex paddle he was using?
 
MarkVK said:
I wonder which size of Jantex paddle he was using?
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I sent Yota an email a few hours ago and just got this reply:

Hello,
Thank you very much. I used Jantex Gamma700 super flex shaft 205-215. My buddy Martin used Gamma 680 super flex shaft 195-210.
I raced wild water racing in Japan for a bit and Martin is really good surfski paddler. That’s why we could paddle well.
Thank you again for watching my R2AK videos.
Yota

Thanks for the info, Yota! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
FYI: The Jantex Gamma is available in blade sizes from 600 cm2 to 800 cm2
The Super Flex shaft is the 'softest' of the 4 shaft options that Jantex offers.
Canadian dealer for Jantex: Kayak Ideal in QC
https://www.kayakideal.com/produit/jantex-gamma/
Shipping (10 day) cost for a (2-piece) paddle from QC to Victoria $43
GST payable but no PST for non-QC buyers.
Very quick responses to my emailed questions.
:thumbsup:
 
More info from Yota in a follow-up email:
If I get older, I will get smaller blade and shorter length. But for the long distance, the super flex shaft was game changer. I used to use epic mid twist but my elbows ached after 50 km paddle. Softer shaft is better for long distance.
 
Really interesting! I watched this video...
...which has lots of shots of Yota from his stern-mounted action cam.

Did you notice that his top hand goes down when he paddles? (I only mention this because of various other sources talking about the top hand moving in a horizontal line.) His paddling style is actually a lot like my current approach...except obviously with the wing his strokes are much shorter.

I'm also intrigued by his "limp-wristed" style—at times it looked like his wrist was angled downward almost 90 degrees from his forearm. Maybe that's just to relax on the recovery?

I really want to buy a wing blade and paddle with one for a while. Right now, I can't imagine liking such a short stroke and high cadence. But maybe I'll change my mind aftwer trying a wing? It just looks very frenetic. I'm not questioning its efficiency...Yota clearly goes fast (although that Taran accounts for a lot of his speed!) He also looks like a small guy? (But sort of hard to tell.) He might be loading that huge boat a lot less (with gear) than I would at 215lbs/97kg—so he'd be riding higher in the water.

And $645 for one of those Jantex Gammas? Yow! That's steep. (I don't think I want a wing THAT badly, LOL.)

@JohnAbercrombie I agree that the flatwater sprint racing folks have analyzed the sh*t out of boats and paddles and techniques, so I'm sure they know what they're talking about.

What I'd bet they haven't done is actually do A/B comparison analysis and testing between wings and Euro blades. (They might have way back when the first wings were being used but probably not since then.) Because why would they? No respectable racer uses a Euro blade.

Put differently, I'd love to know how much slower over, say 1,000 meters, a top Olympic sprint kayaker would be using a Werner Kalliste than using whatever wing blade they'd normally use? I bet the difference wouldn't be huge (I'm sure an Olympic team K-1 could paddle pretty damn fast with a Werner Kalliste!)
 
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SWriverstone said:
And $645 for one of those Jantex Gammas?
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Don't forget that's CAD. But, tariffs can make a difference, so you need to check prices in the USA. :)
You can probably get an 'American' Epic or Stellar wing (made in China) more easily, but they will both be more expensive than I'd pay for a Jantex (made in Slovakia) in Canada.
A Werner Kalliste is more than that in Canada, BTW.
 
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SWriverstone said:
What I'd bet they haven't done is actually do A/B comparison analysis and testing between wings and Euro blades. (They might have way back when the first wings were being used but probably not since then.) Because why would they? No respectable racer uses a Euro blade.
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You aren't suggesting that world-class racers and coaches are ignoring a way to go faster, just because they are 'set in their ways', surely?
 
SWriverstone said:
Did you notice that his top hand goes down when he paddles?
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Ah...no I didn't notice that. His top hand is always above his shoulder, everywhere I look. It's often tough to see with the stern-mounted cam. Perhaps his top hand path isn't precisely horizontal, but it doesn't drop a lot.
Yota.JPG
 
SWriverstone said:
Yota clearly goes fast (although that Taran accounts for a lot of his speed!
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I've got a boat that's a lot like a Taran (EK Aurora) and I can't make it go that fast and that far! :)
But, yes, compared to most wider kayaks, the Taran is reputed to be a fast design, with a number of 'record' paddles to its credit. The deck shape on most FSKs (fast sea kayaks) also makes an efficient high-angle stroke easier as the boat is narrower forward of the cockpit.
 
SWriverstone said:
flatwater sprint racing folks have analyzed
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And kayak marathoners, and surfski competitors and .......
Here's how you can settle the argument:
Buy a wing paddle and change your stroke technique to the Chalupsky model.
Do some longer distance tests and post the data, compared to the technique and paddle you use now.
I try to use the same stroke technique with both my Werner Cyprus and my wing paddles. We hardly ever have calm water around Victoria, so it would be difficult to get meaningful data over a paddle of a few hours. I do wear a GPS watch which displays my average pace over the previous 100m, and I feel (not know) that I'm faster with the wing paddles, by 0.2 -0.4 knots. That's a lot, for me. Even if I weren't faster, I'd still prefer the wing because it is so much more 'solid' feeling in the water.
 
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