"Old" Arctic Tern Ready to Hatch

Discussion in 'Boat and Accessory Building' started by Tarponteaser, Feb 7, 2007.

  1. Tarponteaser

    Tarponteaser Paddler

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    Greetings From Florida Everyone,

    I have been reading the many posts and threads here, picked up the "Kayaks You Can Build" book and am ready to get going on a 2000 Arctic Tern Kit that I had to put on the back burner (back burner heck...it went off the stove completely. Is this a record for taking forever to build...I did glue 2 butt joints before I halted 7 years ago)

    After looking at various projects here, and reading tips my first 2 questions are...

    Tacking planks together with filler versus gluing the seams with unthickened then thickened epoxy is a method advised in Ted Moores book, and a lot of folks here praise the book, but I have not seen any reference on this board where folks use that method.

    1. Is that one of the tips that is not worth using?

    The book also mentions filling in the stitch holes with filler to reduce scraping on the inside of the boat and air bubbles coming out of the holes when glassing. If the wood flour shipped with the kit is used, how well does it match the okume color when the holes are patched, and


    2. Is there a epoxy thickener I should use instead of the wood flour?


    I'm sure there will be many more questions once I begin, but right now I'm trying to plan every step and wonder which is the best method to glue the planks together, and if I should consider getting something else for a thickener besides the wood flour which came with the kit.

    In closing I'd like to say this is a great site with some awesome boats that you folks have built. Reading the progress reports from other members has certainly rekindled the fire to start and finish the project.

    Keep up the good work and thanks for the tips and inspiration

    Randy
     
  2. sushiy

    sushiy Paddler

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    One thing I would do different next time is that I would use better coler matched filler.
    The wood flouer came with the kit is darker than okoume.
    In my thread, we discussed about possibility of using wheat flour. DarenN (experienced builder) says he has been using the bread flouer for some years. I tryed it, and mixed it with wood flouer to match the wood.
    It worked goreat!
    I am not 100% sure if the wheat flour reduce the strengh of the fillett, but for filling the drill hole, I will use it next time.

    DO NOT USE THE GROUND PEPPER!! Astoriadave ( the chemi. specialist) mentioned it has some oil in it that dose not work with epoxy.
     
  3. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    in a nonspecific boat approach,

    1)it sorta depends on what you want your joints to look like,
    2)on how well you can manage dealing with the filler,
    3) whether you have sharp or gentle angles betw the panels,
    4)and whether you are gluing/filling from (or only have access to) the inside or outside.

    a/the first and easiest approach of course is to just use epoxy as that is what is to be used everywhere and will wet over and not discolor the panels, etc. the draw back is that it can run more readily and that it will not easily round out internal corners for laying down the glass.

    b/the next easy approach is to tack with epoxy or CA and then add filler. Its easy because you just use the regular epoxy again and don’t have to deal with fillers and trying to stay within a glueline when the epoxy is thick. The drawback to this is that if you are wanting a coloured glue line and the first layer is thick or blobby, you get imperfections in the colour line.

    c/ the hardest is to jump right into it with filler because of the conflict of control versus the issue of time/ epoxy setup. The first thing you need to evaluate here is - do you want a contrasting fill to accentuate the outside joints, or a colour matched fill because you are filling the inside and wish to round out the panel intersections for laying in glass. This is a conflict that you have to aesthetically resolve for yourself.

    Personally, I hate colour matched filler on the outside of panel or strip boats as is blurrrrrrrrs the crisp edges and therefor designed flow of the panels or of the strips. And yet I also think it looks disgusting where rounded fillets on the inside contrast with the inside panel colour making a blotchy patchy dirty mess – ya gotta have care and control - or use matching on the inside.

    However, once/if you decide on the filler approach – especially in the visible side, you might as well start right off using it. The issue is if you can control the application easily:

    I usually build from the outside and depending on the situation, either use filler or not. The hot tip is that because there is a crack between the panels, you can drag a needle point in the crack almost just by feel alone. And if this needle point is actually a syringe needle point, you now can glues these seams almost with yr eyes closed. If you use an ordinary syringe for epoxy or espec a filler mix – after abt 10 or 15 mins yr hands will shake, yr seams will shake and wobble and yr fist will shake in anger at this ridiculous notion.

    So just use the caulk gun/syringe tech previously covered and yr life will be one of ease and restful repose, where the panels almost automatically glue themselves together and your time is just spent reading about the troubles of other poor soul's trials and tribulations . . . .

    air bubbles will come out or be trapped in some holes - quite unnoticeable to me, but if you are an exact person, then straight epoxy will show darkened holes and filled (syringe inject) can make quite unnoticeable.


    anyway, ideas.
     
  4. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    I've done a couple Pygmies, and used the wood flour that came with the kit, on second and third passes, unfilled epoxy the first pass. Like Mick says, it gives the seams some definition, and looks pretty sharp after cleanup with a carbide scraper blade and a touch with the sanding block.

    Ond day, a power boater moseyed over to where I was launching, admired the boat, and asked me how I got such accurate "pinstripes" onthe boat. Beauty is in the interpretation of the beholder, I guess.
     
  5. Rootman

    Rootman Paddler

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    Randy,

    Are you getting new epoxy or using the stuff (if any) from when you got the kit in 2000?
     
  6. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Are you referring to the butt joints or joining the panels together?

    Filling the staple holes seems like an exercise in futility to me. Do a good job of your seal coat and you don't have to worry about air when you're glassing. Once the boat is done very few people will notice the holes until you explain the process used to build the boat (trust me on this, it'll happen frequently).

    I'd use the supplied flour for everything that shows on the outside of the boat. On my next boat, for anything that is only visible inside the cockpit and hatches (i.e., bulkhead filets, shear seams, deck plates, etc), I use a West Systems product called 406 Colloidal Silica -- it's really easy to work with and makes for the cleanest looking filets. It is an off white colour so you definitely wouldn't want to use it on the exterior of the boat (in the right circumstance, it might actually add a decorative touch to a boat... hmmm). I used the Silica filler for the filets on the bulkheads on my Coho and was quite pleased with the appearance.

    I'd suggest not wandering far from the methods used in the Pygmy manual.

    Thanks Randy, it's a lot of fun watching others build their boats as well.

    *****
     
  7. Tarponteaser

    Tarponteaser Paddler

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    Thanks for the replies everyone.

    To answer rootman's question, the folks at Pygmy said the epoxy is still good, but to take the pumps apart and clean with either acetone or white vinegar, dry then reassemble.

    Regarding Dan's question, I was referring to the seams between planks after stitching together. The book says to skip using the epoxy with syringe and just make up a thickened epoxy with filler (wood flour?) then press into the seam with a putty knife. Some green tape is used to edge the seams so you can press the epoxy mix into the seam without making a mess of the hull. It seems like a method that might save time, but perhaps the pressure of pushing the thickened epoxy mix into the seams could cause unalignment to occur.

    Since I am a rookie at this, it makes sense to pretty much follow the manual with minimal deviations, although I might use clamp pressure instead of weights to glue the butt joints.

    Getting back to cleaning the epoxy pumps...how well does white vinegar work on cleaning unmixed resin and hardener :?:

    Thanks again

    Randy
     
  8. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    A lot of extra trouble for not much gain, IMHO. A carbide scraper cleans up those panel edges easily.

    Weights are better. Too easy to get uneven pressure with clamps. And, those panels need to be laid down accurately and kept flat to get the precise alignment needed for later stitching.

    Acetone is cleaner, quicker, and leaves less residue. Flammable as hell, though.
     
  9. mewisemagic

    mewisemagic Paddler

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    I have Ted Moores' book and I taped off the seams on most of them. After removing the staples and going over those areas, I didn't tape off.

    I found it easier to have the tape. I also have a cabinet scraper and it would have taken it off, but I found that the time to place the tape and pull it off was probably less than taking a scraper to it. I guess it all depends on how carefully you fill it the first time and how much filler you have to scrape off.

    Good luck on the build.

    cyrus
     
  10. Tarponteaser

    Tarponteaser Paddler

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    OK, scratch the vinegar (I'd need acetone for cleaning later anyways),
    I've got a carbide scraper on the Lowes list (along with acetone, sandpaper, putty knife, etc.) (already have the flat cabinet scraper from Pygmy, but having both will not hurt).

    Not knowing how precise I can work with this stuff, I might tape the seams for good measure.

    With an uneven, nonsmooth cement floor in the future workshop, I'll be building a 2x16 work table for the project next week, then off we go :D .

    Thanks again for the insight.

    Randy
     
  11. mewisemagic

    mewisemagic Paddler

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    I believe that the carbide scraper and cabinet scraper are the same thing. I don't know the quality of the one that Pygmy sells, I purchased one from Lee Valley and I believe it was carbide.
     
  12. sushiy

    sushiy Paddler

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    For scraping, GET THE SURE FORM!!
    To smooth the fillett mess, to me, running the Sure Form (only $6.00) a few times to get most of the bumps out, and use the carbide scraper to do final smoothing was easiest. I did use the wood file and sand paper only for the first few seams, and I was exosted. I used the sureform and c.s. for others and I wanted scrape more!!
    and get those mesuring syringes and condient tube, they save you a lot of epoxy.

    I would use the sillica filler next time, it should be stronger and lighter, that means, saving more epoxy and weight, and cost me only $10.00 more.
     
  13. Tarponteaser

    Tarponteaser Paddler

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    The cabinet scraper I bought back in 2000 is a flat piece of steel with an 6" edge, made by Sandvik of Sweden .

    The pictures of the carbide scrapers folks have mentioned look like old fashioned paint scrapers with a handle and a removable carbide edge. I understand that the typical cabinet scraper dulls quickly while the carbide scraper keeps on going without having to sharpen. Never having used either one...I'm open to suggestions on the virtues of both.

    This will certainly be a learning experience....hopefully a positive one (for the entire family) so I can plan on doing another.

    Regards

    Randy
     
  14. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Can't agree more with sushi. The sureform lets you make quick work of taking down the big nasty stuff without damaging the surrounding areas -- it's a great tool for epoxy cleanup.

    *****
     
  15. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    The two scrapers overlap some in their virtues, with need for sharpening differentiating the cabinet one from the carbide, for sure. I built two boats (one their double) using metal scrapers, one of them an oval shape for smoothing inside fillets. However, the carbide scraper gets the most action these days on the power boat I'm building (here: http://tinyurl.com/y3cu5l ), because most of my scraping is on edges or near them, on flat surfaces.

    The metal scraper comes out when I need to take down the high spots on a large panel after the first or second saturation coat of resin. It covers a large area faster and better. But, it dulls quickly, so I have to sharpen it every couple minutes or so.

    Also (and this is the main reason I use it), if there is any concavity to a surface, I use the metal one. The carbide scraper will really gouge the surface. The metal one can be bent to make the center the "leading edge" or the outer corners the "leading edge," to fit the surface you are working on.

    The Sureform tool Sushi likes is handy for the first couple passes on a lumpy seam, but after that, I'm on the others.
     
  16. Tarponteaser

    Tarponteaser Paddler

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    Thanks for reminding me about the sureform tool, I've got a list with all the supplies I need to get next week and I had a question mark between rasp and sureform...I'll go with the sureform over the rasp.

    Another quick question..
    The kit came with system 3 epoxy medium rate. I have read of several folks that ran low on epoxy while building and needed more....how critical is it to stick with the same manufacturer and formulation?

    Should I obtain more system 3 when things are getting low, or can I look for something locally? Raka, Inc is in Fort Pierce (40 min drive) and I understand they make a quality epoxy product as well.


    Thanks for the comparison on scrapers Dave, I'll have to checkout your site to see what you are working on.

    Regards

    Randy

    BTW how come some pictures are viewable while others are a red X? I thought if there was a problem with security settings or firewall that it would be all or nothing :?
     
  17. DarrenM

    DarrenM Paddler

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    Maybe we need a sticky thread called "Handy boat building tools"

    :?: :?:

    Just a thought...
     
  18. Rootman

    Rootman Paddler

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    I used two interior doors, end to end. Lowes sells cheap folding table legs you can screw into them. Sturdier than plywood and easy to store.
     
  19. RoyN

    RoyN Paddler

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    Coming from the world of model airplanes, I used to occassionally help a friend with fiberglass fuselage layup. We used to use Colloidal Silica mixed with epoxy as a filler for those locations where you could not get the fiberglass cloth to lay against the mold.

    If you're looking for a little extra strength while filing, I would suggest using milled glass, not Colloidal Silica.
     
  20. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Tarpon, some folks have an almost religious attachment to a particular epoxy brand. I do not. I use S3 because it is near me, and I like their formulations.

    Any of the major brands should do the job. However, I would not mix brands; e.g., if you run out of the hardener that came with the kit, do not replace it with hardener from a different manufacturer. It would probably be OK, but why chance it.

    The only caveat I might have for Raka (and I have not looked at their formulations in quite a while, so this might be out of date) is that the amber hue might be darker than the S3, so if you leave the boat unpainted, there might be a difference from one area to another if in sanding you sand through the Raka and get into the S3.

    Maybe somebody who knows these brands better can help out.