Old Stitch'n'glue kayak repairs

[tiagosantos]

Well, I've gone and done it.. Thanks to the many folks here on the forum and especially John Abercrombie for the huge help I've had so far! what a great group of folks here on the forum!

A deal popped up that I felt was worth jumping on. I don't believe it's the ideal boat for me (although it is what I had been looking for before I knew any better..) but it was cheap and it'll do for learning a bunch of things all at once

It's in... Floating condition, but pretty rough. The more I look at it, the more little things I find that don't seem to have been done quite right, but it lasted all these years (looks like at least 10) so it must not have been that bad!

The biggest issues I need to fix soon are slight dry rot and delamination around the coaming and lots of bare wood showing on the deck and cockpit, where the varnish/epoxy has dried and flaked off or been rubbed away. The wood looks OK for the most part other than the coaming and some staining in the deck's plywood. You can probably tell how much I've worked with wood by my obviously very accurate and scientific definitions of the problems

The hatches also leak a fair bit so I'll see what I can do to improve that. The bulkheads seem to be sealed but they have a fairly fresh looking bead of silicone caulking around the edges, so I'm going to guess that's the only thing keeping the bulkheads sealed. I will deal with that some other time, though!

I'd welcome any suggestions about how to tackle these things, I'll start by posting what my ideas are - keep in mind these are mostly uneducated guesses! I've downloaded west system's wooden boat repair PDF and will go through it today to see how far off I may be..

At John's suggestion, I'm buying a carbide scraper to get rid of as much of the paint and varnish as I can. Then I've borrowed an electric orbital sander to clean everything up.

I'm thinking of sealing the inside of the cockpit with new epoxy. The joints between each panel have fiberglass tape and seem fine, so the wood just needs to be cleaned up and sealed again, I think. Not sure what I'll do with the deck - I'm guessing a couple of layers of epoxy and then varnish? Doesn't look like the epoxy itself is resistant to UV, and the varnish by itself wouldn't last very long..?

For the coaming, I could sand the surface as best as I can and then fiberglass over it.. Or I've noticed that there are some specific types of epoxy meant to be used on dry rotted wood to fill up the gaps and stabilize it. What would you guys recommend? The rot fix epoxy stuff isn't cheap, though.

Here are some pictures!

Finally - I'm going to guess this is a rather old Chesapeake 17 boat made from plans. There are a few differences to the current Chesapeake 17 kits, but to my untrained eye, it just looks like the differences are mostly down to whoever built it. Anyone thinks it could be something else? Oh, it also seems to be not quite straight, definitely corkscrewed a little bit. Just adds to the charm......

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

Close-up pictures always make things look worse, I think! (I restrict photos of my projects to 10 ft away and farther!)


This is a boat to get you on the water for perhaps a year or so, until you buy or build something else? If that's the case, I wouldn't pour too much money into it. Epoxy is expensive, so I wouldn't put any more on the boat than necessary.
Coaming:
I agree with you that the coaming is probably the spot to work on - it would be embarrassing to pop the sprayskirt and have the coaming come along with it! Are there any spots where the plywood in the 'riser' is completely delaminated so that you could put a putty knife blade right through, and the wood is 'springy'?
Once the boat dries out (looks like you washed it with fresh water - good) -which won't take long if this sunny weather holds- I'd get to work under the coaming lip with some 60 grit sandpaper - wear heavy gloves - and try to get rid of the flaking stuff there. If you have compressed air in your garage, use it to blow out and dry out that area.
I'd use straight epoxy (I wouldn't spend $$ on Git-rot or similar- you can thin epoxy by adding a small amount (up to 10% by volume) of solvent if you need something thinner) and use gravity to help- tip the boat and do a bit at a time - just brush on epoxy - no glass.
You can do the same treatment on the cockpit side of the coaming- it's a lot easier to work there.
If the surface needs filling and smoothing, epoxy with filler is a possibility but that will mean painting afterward.

At that point, if you want to, you could consider rounding over the inner edges of the coaming and glassing the top of the coaming (lip) and carrying the glass down and under the deck for an inch or two.

Inside the boat, and on the deck- once the surface is cleaned up, I'd just varnish or paint.

If the U-bolt(s) at the end(s) are solid, you already have a good spot to start your perimeter deck lines, after the deck is finished.

 

[tiagosantos]

I didn't find any really horrible spots on the coaming, it still seems structurally sound. A fair bit of sanding and some epoxy should definitely take care of it!

Does the west system epoxy stuff keep once it's been opened? I guess if I have to use it all, I'll coat the inside and the deck with whatever I have left, but I can store it for a good while, I'll save it for a different project.

Since the deck is pretty badly stained, I'm wondering if I should just go ahead and paint it with polyurethane topside paint.. Might end up looking better than the varnish. I know polyurethane takes a fair bit of work to get nice and smooth, though. And unless I luck out with some clearance colours, it's not particularly cheap either. Haven't checked prices on varnish, maybe it's not a huge difference.

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

I didn't find any really horrible spots on the coaming, it still seems structurally sound. A fair bit of sanding and some epoxy should definitely take care of it!

Good!

Does the west system epoxy stuff keep once it's been opened? I guess if I have to use it all, I'll coat the inside and the deck with whatever I have left, but I can store it for a good while, I'll save it for a different project.

Epoxy keeps indefinitely, though the hardeners tend to darken over time (reaction with air?) Try to keep it from freezing temperatures - not a big problem in this part of the world.
You can use epoxy for lots of boat jobs, so even if you don't build yourself a boat, it will come in handy.

Since the deck is pretty badly stained, I'm wondering if I should just go ahead and paint it with polyurethane topside paint.. Might end up looking better than the varnish. I know polyurethane takes a fair bit of work to get nice and smooth, though. And unless I luck out with some clearance colours, it's not particularly cheap either. Haven't checked prices on varnish, maybe it's not a huge difference.

I don't know which polyurethane paints you are referring to. The 2-part LPU paints are not good for overcoating over old paint and varnish - you can get wrinkling problems. There are lots of possibilities from house paint 'on up'. Kayaks spend so little time in the weather and water if stored under cover that lots of finishes will work. It does depend on how slick you want the result to be, but a 'car finish' on that boat would be a bit out of place IMO.
If you are painting, you definitely should fix some of the raw-looking edges with epoxy and filler, and use a good primer.

BTW, if you are thinking about gluing in (with epoxy) any tabs for securing gear under deck or in the compartments, do that before you paint/varnish the inside. Making tabs is a nice little glass/epoxy project.


If you want to put glass/epoxy in the cockpit, a small area where your heels rest would be one spot to consider.

 

[tiagosantos]

The paint I was thinking about is this sort of stuff - http://www.westmarine.com/interlux--bri ... 21_002_006

Fairly easy to work with and incredibly tough.. I've noticed one of the local marine supply places seems to usually have a couple of odd colours on clearance. I've used this type of paint on a CNC machine enclosure - it has survived all the coolants and cutting oils and many gallons of steel and aluminum chips without any damage

The varnish on the deck is flaking off in chunks, so I think no matter what, I'll have to remove most of it, or would you varnish right over all of that?

On my machine enclosure thing (plywood) I used the paint itself as a primer, thinned with Xylene.. Worked out pretty well but I would definitely have to sand to bare wood for that to work. It would also ruin someone else's chances of ever having a clear finish on this boat - but again, the wood damage makes the clear finish pretty unsightly to start with :/

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

The varnish on the deck is flaking off in chunks, so I think no matter what, I'll have to remove most of it, or would you varnish right over all of that?

If it's flaking, I'd definitely get all the loose stuff off. My guess is the rest will come away easily. A kayak deck isn't a big area, so it isn't that much work. If you decide to varnish, be careful not to sand through the thin face veneer of the plywood.

On my machine enclosure thing (plywood) I used the paint itself as a primer, thinned with Xylene.. Worked out pretty well but I would definitely have to sand to bare wood for that to work. It would also ruin someone else's chances of ever having a clear finish on this boat - but again, the wood damage makes the clear finish pretty unsightly to start with :/

I think it will be difficult to get a good-looking all-clear finish on that deck. I've seen kayaks with 'partly wood looking' decks - panels of varnished wood with the rest painted. One of the most spectacular boats I ever saw was a Ted Moores canoe that he'd finished jet black on the exterior except for a narrow band of clear-finished cedar strip.

For painting, I'd use the Interlux primer recommended for the Brightsides enamel. A good primer is easy to sand.

(Get the colour you want vs 'on sale', IMO - you look at it all the time you are paddling.... )

 

[Astoriadave]

Three comments:

1. Those dark areas on the sheer look suspicious to me. I would hit them aggressively with a grinder to get back to good wood, fill with a mix of 1:4 milled glass:fumed silica aka Cabosil stirred into mixed epoxy, glass fibers first, and fair to the existing surfaces. Check out the System Three Epoxy Book on the S3 site, which is a free download, for advice.

2. Epoxy underdecks is a good idea, but be sure to thoroughly roughen the existing surface with 80 grit or even 60 grit. Don't be gentle. Suspect the chines and keel seams will need to be done by hand. That carbide scraper is good for those.

3. On choice of paint: some paints will not cure if applied directly onto epoxy. Before you commit to doing the entire deck (and, it needs paint, not black, maybe something lighter in hue), do a test patch of a few square inches. If it does not cure rock hard, try another brand. They should know at the marine supply store which paint cures over epoxy. If they are hesitant or unsure, find another paint outlet. Paint is cheap. Your prep time and labor is the biggest investment you will make in this baby. FWIW the two part WR-LPU from S3 cures over epoxy to a hard, durable finish, is water based to save your lungs, and a quart will be enough to cover that deck four or five times.

 

[tiagosantos]

Thanks guys..

I've bought some west epoxy stuff and I'm gonna start sanding and prepping the coaming right now. Depending on how that goes, I'll see how I feel about the rest of the deck

 

[OrcaBoats]

I am in Coquitlam, so if there is anything you need help with, let me know. If you want me to take a look and give some thoughts, would be willing to do so.

 

[tiagosantos]

Hey Rod,

Thanks, I might well take you up on the offer! I know I will need some bits and pieces from you for the deck rigging and possibly some help/advice about fixing the ferrule on an old grey owl paddle. I might give you a call tomorrow and see when you'd be free for me to swing by!

I spent a couple hours working on it this afternoon. I dug into the coaming and under the old, dried out varnish, the wood rot was pretty bad. Still didn't find any spots that went completely through the ply, but there was some movement if I pulled on the coaming with some force. I mixed up a small amount of epoxy and spread it around the coaming, trying to get it well I to the gaps. I'm not convinced it'll be enough (or rather I'm not convinced I got enough of the rotten wood out and enough of the epoxy in.

So tomorrow morning I'll try to lay some fiberglass around the coaming. After that, it should all be just sanding the flat deck areas and painting. I'm seriously considering using acrylic latex house paint at this point.. Cheap, lots of colours and seems to work well enough from what I've seen.. I know it seems silly to cheap out on the paint after all the work of prepping.. But while my time is free (until next Monday, that is!) and I can justify it as a learning experience, I find it hard to justify spending another $100 on primer and paint considering the boat it's going on

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

I'm not convinced it'll be enough (or rather I'm not convinced I got enough of the rotten wood out and enough of the epoxy in.

So tomorrow morning I'll try to lay some fiberglass around the coaming.

Unless you have a fairly smooth surface, putting glass over will just create voids which will collect water and possibly make the problem worse. Working under the coaming lip is one of the most awkward spots, but you really need to get that area epoxied and the surface filled with thickened epoxy. Then coarse sand to get it reasonably smooth...I don't know if you were planning to glass under the coaming (difficult IME) but you need a smooth epoxy surface there to discourage water ingress IMO.
Same for the exposed (cockpit side and top) surfaces on the coaming - you need to shape and sand, epoxy, fill, smooth, and then glass. It's a multi-step job for most of us.

Did you try the 'gravity assist' to get epoxy penetration?
Using a heat gun can help to push out bubbles of hot air and allow the epoxy to 'suck in' when things cool down.

 

[tiagosantos]

Hey John,

I did try the gravity assist, but it turned out to be a bit awkward to hold the kayak sideways and I wasn't quite well prepared for it. The boat ended up at a 60 degree angle rather than perfectly vertical, but I think I still got a fair bit of epoxy into the plywood.. Just don't think it would be quite enough to leave it as is without reinforcing with glass..

Your instructions for filling the gaps with thickened epoxy and smoothing it before glassing make sense! Guess I'm glad I got rained out this morning or I probably would have made a mess. I've been working under a 10x15' pop up tent in the backyard, so it didn't seem like a good idea to work with the epoxy this morning given the high humidity..

I can imagine that fiberglassing the underside of the coaming will be a pain (by underside you mean where the spray skirt elastic band fits into, right?). I could just go from the top, around the cockpit side and to the underside of the deck.. That might give enough support to make sure the coaming isn't going to rip apart and the filling/filleting on the outside should keep water from causing any more damage. Is that what you'd suggest?

 

[Astoriadave]

Tiago,

For work inside the hull, sawhorses with crude cradles sawed from plywood, a little pipe insulation to protect the boat on the plywood edges, to support the boat hull up, and a short stool or maybe a concrete block or two to sit on will allow you to get your head and eyes into the cockpit to guide your hands and tools to do the work (MASK). Scrape and use 60 grit to roughen things, fill voids, as discussed, and then glass, with some resin laid down where the glass goes, using glass precut for each part. Paint on the resin, stipple with the chip brush as needed, and squeegee excess off into a small box or other throwaway container. Overlap of the glass is OK.

Avoid large batches of resin, as they will go off in the mixing container if delayed. Best to mix a couple ounces at a time, and quickly distribute onto the glass, upending the mixing container onto a spot that will eventually need resin as you work the other stuff in. No need to worry about snaggles or rough spots. That carbide scraper will take them down when the resin is still a little green. A fill coat on the glass is a good idea, best done within 12 to 18 hours after glassing.

On humidity: epoxy does not care about that. Drops of water are death, but 80 per cent humidity is not an issue. The heat gun used judiciously will bring out any moisture in the wood, if gently wafted over the work before laying resin down .... and suck resin into the wood, sealing those pores, as it all cools.

Do wear gloves religiously. Sensitization to epoxy resin is a lifelong curse, and there is no cure.

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

I agree 100% with Dave's suggestions above. Getting a bit 'rough-and-ready creative' with some wood scraps and clamps or screws, you can rig up supports to get the boat 'on edge' if that's what you want. Taking 30 minutes or so, if necessary, to get the boat supported for the job will be worth the trouble.

I can imagine that fiberglassing the underside of the coaming will be a pain (by underside you mean where the spray skirt elastic band fits into, right?). I could just go from the top, around the cockpit side and to the underside of the deck.. That might give enough support to make sure the coaming isn't going to rip apart and the filling/filleting on the outside should keep water from causing any more damage. Is that what you'd suggest?

Yes- glassing the underside of the coaming would be quite difficult, IMO. If you get a smooth epoxy surface under there, that should be fine. Even doing that without a lot of post-epoxy sanding can be tricky.

For filler to add to the epoxy, I'd mix mostly 410 Microlight (expensive but good stuff) with just enough silica (no-sag) to stiffen it up to the right consistency. Using only silica additive makes a very hard-to-sand result- useful if you want abrasion resistance, but 'a pain' otherwise.

I'd aim for 'peanut butter' consistency or very slightly thinner for the filler. A chip brush with the bristles trimmed shorter and a plastic spreader of the right size (trimmed from an auto body spreader, or even a plastic container from around the house) can help to keep things under control in that under-lip area. Do some 'dry run' rehearsing before you mix up the epoxy. As Dave suggests, mix fairly small batches. Epoxy with filler cures/heats up more quickly, so try to get the mix transferred to the boat and spread out promptly vs. letting it sit in the mixing container.

Though it seems like a 'small job', this is the sort of thing that I'd probably split into a number (4?6?more?) of separate stages - so it will probably be spread out over a few days. Our sudden spell of cooler weather (not the humidity) will affect the curing time of the epoxy.
Under the lip:
Sand to bare wood
Epoxy saturate
Sand
Epoxy fill
Sand
RE-fill and sand any spots missed.

Top and cockpit side of coaming and under deck
Sand to bare wood
Reshape as appropriate - you want the rim to curve around if possible, not have 'corners' which will cause problems with glassing.
Epoxy saturate
Sand
Epoxy fill if necessary
Sand
Glass
Fill coat of epoxy (with Microlight if you are painting it)
Sand

...you get the picture.....not work for the impatient!

BTW, Sean Dawe in NL http://justyakkin2.blogspot.ca/ has used spray truck bed coating on some of his boat projects, so that might be a possibility for part of this job.(if you like black?).

 

[tiagosantos]

...you get the picture.....not work for the impatient!

NOW you tell me?!

I dragged the boat outside after lunch and spent some more time sanding the coaming and roughing up the epoxy I had poured yesterday. The epoxy seemed to have done at least part of the job - I didn't see any dry spots and pushing/pulling on the coaming, I didn't see any movement between the layers, whereas it was obvious before. I didn't pull too hard as I understand the epoxy isn't fully cured yet.

I roughed up yesterday's epoxy lightly, just enough for the new filler to grab onto.. Then made a batch of epoxy with the 406 fairy dust (guess I should have waited for your latest post, John!). I read all the warnings about being careful to not get it airborne. Yeah right.. How can a can so full of something weigh so close to nothing? This is some sort of wizardry, obviously.

Anyway, I was surprised at how much filler it took to get to the proper consistency but quickly got to work. I had previously sanded a mixing stick to approximately the size of the gap between the coaming and the deck, with nicely rounded corners. I used another mixing stick to roughly fill up the gap with epoxy and spread it around, then quickly went over with the fitted stick to smooth it out and further fill up the gaps in the wood.. Seems to have worked out, but I guess I'll find out tomorrow! Hopefully it ends up pretty smooth or I foresee a full day of sanding in my future. It's a good workout, but I only seem able to do decent work with the left hand. By the end of this project, I think my left arm will be double the size of the right..

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

I had previously sanded a mixing stick to approximately the size of the gap between the coaming and the deck, with nicely rounded corners.

Excellent!

About the shaping of the inside edge of the coaming...I don't know how 'thick' the riser is for that coaming (i.e. how wide were the plywood pieces that were stacked for the coaming riser?). If there is enough material , you can consider rounding over that transition.
A couple of 'more curvy' examples of what I'm trying to describe:



It makes it easier to slip in to and bail out of the boat if the inner edge is rounded, IMO.

 

[Astoriadave]

Plus, no puzzling scratches about your waist ... begging for an explanation.

 

[tiagosantos]

The plywood is pretty thick.. Off the top of my head, it's either 1/2 or 5/8".. Definitely lots of room for shaping but what magical tool would I use to make it quicker? My sander doesn't seem to go through the wood all that fast.. Should I try a grinder?

 

[Astoriadave]

The plywood is pretty thick.. Off the top of my head, it's either 1/2 or 5/8".. Definitely lots of room for shaping but what magical tool would I use to make it quicker? My sander doesn't seem to go through the wood all that fast.. Should I try a grinder?

Wood rasp, Stanley Sureform tools, or a right angle high speed grinder with 60 grit on the pad. Mask up for that one! Because there may be glass in that area, I would expect to dull a rasp and a Sureform tool. The sandpaper is a better choice.

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

The plywood is pretty thick.. Off the top of my head, it's either 1/2 or 5/8".. Definitely lots of room for shaping but what magical tool would I use to make it quicker? My sander doesn't seem to go through the wood all that fast.. Should I try a grinder?

Well, it depends what you have in your toolbox.
-a router with a roundover bit
-an angle grinder with a coarse sanding disk will work but it can be tricky around the corners. BE careful with this tool- a coarse disk can make a mess of flesh.
Using anything but the router, make a template with the curve so you can keep things uniform.
Also, make 'flats' (bevels) and then round over later.
EDIT: I agree with Dave's comment (added while I was typing here) about not using your good rasps, router bits and edge tools around fiberglass. If there is glass there, sand/grind it off first. /EDIT.
You could use a sharp chisel or gouge, but this could be risky if you haven't done much wood carving/shaping.
I'd reach for this half-round rasp (another tool I just got in the past few years, and use all the time now...) if the router wasn't handy:

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.a ... at=1,42524

Another possibility would be a large sanding drum in an electric drill (preferably right-angle drill).