Perimeter Lines

Discussion in 'Boat and Accessory Building' started by Tootsall, Apr 12, 2010.

  1. Tootsall

    Tootsall Paddler

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    Here's a question I've wondered and, since I'm about to begin a build on #2 (hopefully it arrives this week) with some variations, becomes more timely.

    Looking at Kathy's Shearwater photos I observe that her perimeter lines appear fairly slack.

    So..........
    Should perimeter lines be slack?
    or as tight "as a fiddle" (provided you don't tear the attachment points out but can still get your fingers around the line ?
    or as tight as reasonably possible but still allowing one to push a paddle through under the opposite side line for the paddle/float reentry? (those with a boat having a "tented" rear deck rather than flat or with a purpose-designed paddle "groove" will understand)

    Would one recommend using nylon (stretchy) or something with less spring in it? (ie, woven poly)?

    Ed
     
  2. Stumpy

    Stumpy Paddler

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    On the rare occasions I've put perimeter lines, I used paracord, taut, but not stretched. paracord has a minimal stretch to it, but not enough to go really slack when wet. You should never use perimeter lines for a paddlefloat rescue, so I've heard... I use a greenland two- line rigging behind the cockpit, with wood, or hdpe slides, and 1/4" poly core, nylon sheathed line... makes for a very secure paddle attachment, which allows easy sliding out of the paddle, once you are situated in the kayak. I usually leave the deck w/out perimeter lines, though, since I'm building sof, and the seams leave enough purchase to grab the boat. That's my two cents, dunno if it can be applied to a wood kayak.
     
  3. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Perimeter lines should be loose enough to get a gloved hand around -- a somewhat loose line is much easier to grab (with or without gloves) than one that is ultra taught. I don't think it's a good idea to use any line that stretches.

    Stumpy, isn't parachord quite thin? I use a cord that I get from Western Canoe and Kayak in Abbotsford -- it's got a nylon sheath around a non-stretch centre cord -- it's about 3/16" thick and easy to hold on to.

    I used a sliding knot at each end of my perimeter lines (not sure what the knot is called -- I'll see if I've got a photo and post it) so that I can vary the looseness of the line depending on season or conditions.

    *****
     
  4. KathyD

    KathyD Paddler

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    Hi, This is Kathy with the Shearwater. I'm still working on adjusting how tight the deck rigging is; I think the perimeter lines are a little slack right now, but I figure they will stretch out with wetting and drying and being used for a bit and then I'll re-tie them tighter, so I'm not planning to leave them that slack. That being said, I don't think you would want them tight enough that they're hard to grab in an emergency. I figure the time when I'd need to use them most is windy/wavy conditions when I've capsized and the boat is starting to be blown away and it's bobbing up and down with the waves and I'm making a mad grab. I figure if the line is a little slack it would be easier to catch than if it was really tight against the deck. However, I've never been in that situation, so perhaps someone who has can comment on the realities of trying to catch a deck line while their boat is floating away.

    As Stumpy said, you wouldn't use the perimeter lines for a paddle re-entry. I installed an X/box of bungee cord (not the X-Box video system, although I'm sure my son would prefer it) behind the cockpit that is for a paddle re-entry.

    Looking forward to seeing what you decide to do and the progress on your build!
    Kathy
     
  5. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Here's the perimeter lines on the front deck of my coho. You can see the knot that I used -- it's quite tight and doesn't move much when the line is pulled on (you have to grab the knot tightly and slide it along the line). I used soft padeyes - you can see in the 2nd photo how I created a contact point for the perimeter lines with the centre hatch padeye.
     

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  6. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Parachute cord is too small, for my tastes -- a bare hand would perhaps get pretty damaged sliding along it. I think I'd use 5 mm New England polyester line for deck lines. Does not shrink, takes knots well (sets well, also). I bet MEC sells this in their climbing cordage area. I got mine from REI in a 30 ft hank, sort of a yellowjacket color pattern. Can't miss it.

    I like the grapevine knot for joining lines such as those on deck -- sort of a fisherman's bend on steroids, yet can be readily broken down if you need to. Used to use this on Prussik loops, in the day.

    Grapevine: http://tinyurl.com/y5xez63 (almost all the way down)
     
  7. Stumpy

    Stumpy Paddler

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    Dan, paracord is 3/16, nylonsheathed polycore, sounds like what you are using, but by a different name. It is kind of small, but it's only for grabbing your kayak when you're in the water, or to allow some one else to grab it, in a rescue situation. I forgot to mention that I do sometimes put small 3/4" beads of hdpe or exotic wood on it, to lift it off the deck 3/8" or so.
    Dave, the grapevine knot, now that it has a name, looks like what Dan is using, and what I use on the painters at the bow & stern, basically it's a figure eight knot, tied at both ends of the overlap... very secure, non-slip knot that's adjustable in length. Thanks! I never knew what to call it.
    The only place I use bungee is in front of the cockpit, where I might want to stuff things, and size of those things might vary. behind the cockpit, I like the non- stretch, 6mm nylon/poly line with sliders for adjustment. Because of long- term back and shoulder injuries, I have flexibility for access back there, so I don't stow anything behind me, but with the rigid rigging, I can easily shove the paddle in there, re- enter, then slide the paddle out, once I'm seated. I first did this type of rig when I built a racing boat for a freind, and knew he would need a paddle brace almost every time he got in.... I couldn't have gotten in to that thing, even if I used the paddle as a shoehorn :lol:
     
  8. thief

    thief Paddler

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    perimeter lines should be just tight enough that you can get your fingers under them to grab them but then not too loose....

    I am not a fan of the sliding knots on perimeter lines...if i have to someone my clip is going on that perimeter line and then first thing that is going to happen is that the line is going to get pulled VERY tight....those p-lines will probably never look the same again....that will just add slack into the tow system...

    i was wondering how the perimeter lines guides/holders/webbing pieces fair under tow...anyone been towed while in a wooden boat? any thoughts?

    rob
     
  9. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    There are different thoughts on this -- I prefer my lines to be not too loose -- I've seen others (including manufacturers) who have very loose perimeter lines on their boats.

    The sliding knot on my boat has very little slippage, if at all when pulling on it. And even if it does slip, there's only about 3 inches of slide on each end -- it's not going to slip much.

    We've towed, been towed, pulled and yanked on my perimeter lines lots and lots over the past five years -- they still look as good today as the day I installed them.

    Stumpy, the perimeter lines on my boat are not paracord -- the line that I use is not nearly as flexible as paracord -- it's actually quite stiff.

    *****
     
  10. Mark_Schilling

    Mark_Schilling Paddler

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    Rob, I've towed my Tern 14 in the past and the 'soft padeyes' (web loops) hold up probably as well as many of the plastic, recessed padeyes on the market. However, I don't use any sort of sliding knots on my perimeter lines. They have plain old, ugly but very secure knots. The perimeter lines are fairly tight; I could easily get a gloved hand around them but they don't have much more play than that.

    The soft padeyes are stapled, epoxied, and Sika-flexed into place. All force on them is in an upward direction, of course; for them to fail, the web would either have to tear, or come free of a large staple and a generous amount of epoxy which saturates the webbing. Both seem very unlikely. I've had the boat wrenched from my hands while swimming in a good sized surf and there is no damage whatsoever to any of the padeyes or perimeter lines. However, I knew when I built the boat that I'd be using it as a boat - in surf and unforgiving situations - and so I built it to take as much punishment as my Explorer could handle. Admittedly, it no longer has that coffee-table craftsmanship look to it, but it's taken some hard knocks over the years and all the damage is purely cosmetic.
     
  11. psims

    psims New Member

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  12. rider

    rider Paddler

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    Sometimes you can have a perimeter line with a fair bit of slack and a bungee to take up that slack. Makes for the best of function when needed and no slop otherwise. Though in all honesty I don't think I ever really needed to use the perimeter line as long as i've paddled.
     
  13. thief

    thief Paddler

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    great reply guys! thanks.....

    i am getting tempted about building a boat.....and in the near future will have a basement to build in!!!!

    Good winds!
    rob
     
  14. Rrdstarr

    Rrdstarr Paddler

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    I am thinking that might be the smart way to go? Maybe the last six inches of the perimeter lines should be bungeed. Will keep them taught till someone needs to grab hold and have a little give if something abrupt happens. I think I might lay mine out tonight. I also got the new fangled hatch latches from Pygmy today. I will post a pic later if I can get them to actually post at 600pixel wide. Still have lots to learn on the iMac! :oops:
     
  15. rider

    rider Paddler

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    Aren't the Pygmy hatch 'latches' the same thing that Current Designs used since god knows when? Or are we talking about some kind of an internal latching system?
    The method I was describing for the perimeter line does not make a bungee a part of the perimeter line, just an add-on pull to take up the slack. Also a safe approach since some lines shrink with wetting/drying overtime(especially the black ones with the reflective streak that most brands use now)