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plastic boats
- Thread starter wetelvis
- Start date
andreas
Paddler
Don't do it.....
Comoxpaddler
Paddler
I'm interested in the collective wisdom of the group here.
Having waxed lyrical about the Wilderness Systems Zephyrs I find myself on the cusp of buying a Wilderness Systems Tempest 165.
Wonderful little boat.
Having waxed lyrical about the Wilderness Systems Zephyrs I find myself on the cusp of buying a Wilderness Systems Tempest 165.
Wonderful little boat.
I don't think I will stray far from CW by saying this:
Plastic boats are the bottom of the heap in the material hierarchy. They are heavy,ugly,oil-can and break down in the sun.
On the other hand, they are also the most resistant to hard mechanical impact.
It comes down to price.
If you can find a plastic boat with decent hull for a low,low price, why not. It will get you on the water and if you like it, then you move up to boats made with better materials.
Plastic boats are the bottom of the heap in the material hierarchy. They are heavy,ugly,oil-can and break down in the sun.
On the other hand, they are also the most resistant to hard mechanical impact.
It comes down to price.
If you can find a plastic boat with decent hull for a low,low price, why not. It will get you on the water and if you like it, then you move up to boats made with better materials.
rider
Paddler
Heavy=typically within 5-7 lbs of the glass version.
Break down in the sun-Yeah, if you store it in the sun for years.
Ugly-matter of taste.
Bottom of the heap? Different strokes for different folks, but I'd say for all-around use in potentially rough conditions and exposed landings, Thermoformed would be at the bottom of the heap. Thermo is also pretty restrictive as far as hull shapes go.
Not saying this because I have 2 for sale, but because I'm keeping at least one for a long time for what they do well.
As to moving up and prices and all, I've recently looked at a bunch of used glass boats for sale under 2 grand and most were in fair to poor shape.
Glass,long-lasting and easily repairable as it is, isn't exactly maintenance free if put through any kind of repeated abuse.
Break down in the sun-Yeah, if you store it in the sun for years.
Ugly-matter of taste.
Bottom of the heap? Different strokes for different folks, but I'd say for all-around use in potentially rough conditions and exposed landings, Thermoformed would be at the bottom of the heap. Thermo is also pretty restrictive as far as hull shapes go.
Not saying this because I have 2 for sale, but because I'm keeping at least one for a long time for what they do well.
As to moving up and prices and all, I've recently looked at a bunch of used glass boats for sale under 2 grand and most were in fair to poor shape.
Glass,long-lasting and easily repairable as it is, isn't exactly maintenance free if put through any kind of repeated abuse.
DesertDave
Paddler
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2009
- Messages
- 28
Price is key to me. The last new boat I bought was available in RM or fiberglass. RM weighs 54 lbs and was list price $1400 US. Fiberglass weighed 52 lbs and was $2800 US. Same outfitting in the cockpit, some 'enhancements' on the hatches in the fiberglass model.
It's kinda like the increment in price when going from a fiberglass paddle to the same model in carbon. Maybe twice the price for a few ounces less weight. Might be worth the $200 increment to some, especially since the differences would be felt in every stroke.
A $1400 difference in kayak price, to me, is a lot harder to justify than a $200 paddle increment.
It's kinda like the increment in price when going from a fiberglass paddle to the same model in carbon. Maybe twice the price for a few ounces less weight. Might be worth the $200 increment to some, especially since the differences would be felt in every stroke.
A $1400 difference in kayak price, to me, is a lot harder to justify than a $200 paddle increment.
sushiy
Paddler
wetelvis said:
Why are you looking for a plastic boat? Are you tired of fixing your glass boat?
I think not everyone knows your skill level.
I assume you know what type of hull shape you like. So how about finding the plastic version of that? I heard that plastic's hatches and bulkhead tend to leak ( I don't know if it is true), but you can keep float bag in there ( I assume you want it for your stormy-day-rockside-playing.).
Plastic Tempest( used) is always on sale from an outfitter in Friday Harbor ( San Juan Is.) on Craigslist.
lance_randy
Paddler
Something else to consider: Plastic boats flex, and oil can like friggin' crazy as soon as there is a load in them. The owners of plastic boats might not tell you this, because like the proverbial frog in the pot of hot water, they don't notice it anymore.
I think if you are coming from glass boats, you might be really disappointed with the feel of plastic on the water. The constant flexing, and oil canning...ugg... it's not very 'high performance' feeling. Every time I have paddled a plastic boat, it felt like a crappy rental.
I think if you are coming from glass boats, you might be really disappointed with the feel of plastic on the water. The constant flexing, and oil canning...ugg... it's not very 'high performance' feeling. Every time I have paddled a plastic boat, it felt like a crappy rental.
rider
Paddler
Flex,yes. Oil can, only if you don't store/transport them properly. Flex also means you won't crack/chip the gelcoat if you plow into a rock or launching a loaded boat off a dock. Some boats definetely flex more than others, mostly to do with hull shape/rear deck height behind cockpit.
@ the OP: when shopping for a used plastic boat, I would compare the colour of the plastic inside the hatch with the colour of the hull and deck. You'll notice UV fading pretty quick that way. There is bound to be some, but extreme fading might be a sign to walk away, or it might be a good bargaining chip.
That said, after all the warnings I've heard bandied about in regards to plastic and the sun, I've seen and used old plastic boats that are still strong.
I think getting the hull shape and price you want is more important than the material.
That said, after all the warnings I've heard bandied about in regards to plastic and the sun, I've seen and used old plastic boats that are still strong.
I think getting the hull shape and price you want is more important than the material.
Comoxpaddler
Paddler
There were no glass boats at the Puntledge River Whitewater Paddlefest today. The boats are treated brutally, both off the water and on it. This is why I now want a plastic sea kayak for playing in places like Surge Narrows and Okisollo.
And one of my friends managed to broadside the only rock on the beach at Saratoga (up-Island for you Victoria types) in his glass Romany Surf which is going to be in the kayak hospital for quite a while having 6-12" of hull rebuilt. He too is looking at plastic.
And one of my friends managed to broadside the only rock on the beach at Saratoga (up-Island for you Victoria types) in his glass Romany Surf which is going to be in the kayak hospital for quite a while having 6-12" of hull rebuilt. He too is looking at plastic.
BackCountryPunk
Paddler
Plastic boats are more affordable (I wouldn't say cheap), able to take a bunch of abuse which is great for rough landings, dragging up on shore, having the neighbours kid drop his bike on it, and other general abuse, all real things to consider (especially if you are using a shared storage space!).
IMO The weight issue is not really much to consider, as Rider pointed out typically within 5 - 7lbs, equivalent to a few litres of drinking water. Its not like you are hiking with the extra weight on your back or feet...
With the risk of leaky bulkheads, nothing a quick bead of sealant shouldn't be able nullify.
I'd love to have a glass boat as well, they are fast, nice to look at, have generally a better fit & finish, and then I could paddle with all the cool kids who look down on plastic boats, without feeling like an ugly duckling :roll:
IMO The weight issue is not really much to consider, as Rider pointed out typically within 5 - 7lbs, equivalent to a few litres of drinking water. Its not like you are hiking with the extra weight on your back or feet...
With the risk of leaky bulkheads, nothing a quick bead of sealant shouldn't be able nullify.
I'd love to have a glass boat as well, they are fast, nice to look at, have generally a better fit & finish, and then I could paddle with all the cool kids who look down on plastic boats, without feeling like an ugly duckling :roll:
I'm interested in this thread as I am thinking about purchasing a Delta 17 in the near future, and it is made with the thermoformed plastic.
Why is thermoformed plastic at the bottom? I've heard that it performs more like glass than rotomolded plastic yet is almost as strong as RM.
I've also read that the finish they put on the Delta's make them more resistant to UV rays than RM or glass boats.
Now I don't work for Delta and I don't own one (yet) but I must admit I'm really close to buying one. Would a glass boat really outperform a plastic boat so much that I would notice? I'm a newbie to the sport and am looking for something that is durable, affordable, and performs well.
Why is thermoformed plastic at the bottom? I've heard that it performs more like glass than rotomolded plastic yet is almost as strong as RM.
I've also read that the finish they put on the Delta's make them more resistant to UV rays than RM or glass boats.
Now I don't work for Delta and I don't own one (yet) but I must admit I'm really close to buying one. Would a glass boat really outperform a plastic boat so much that I would notice? I'm a newbie to the sport and am looking for something that is durable, affordable, and performs well.
Perhaps you'd like to take a look at Valley's poly boats. The club I belong to has a fleet of mostly poly boats and I've been lobbying for them to buy an Aquanaut this season. They are probably right along the lines of the kind of boat you'd like, and the price point is good too (I see Ecomarine has a couple in stock for less than $2000). I've heard they are well built boats.
I've paddled a bunch of poly Neckys and it seems like the ones built in the last few seasons have quality issues: things like leaky bulkheads and skegs that get stuck.
I'm assuming you're wanting a poly boat for things like rock gardens, etc. Paddling plastic is nice in that way- the sound of scraping plastic on rocks isn't nearly as cringe inducing as the sound of scraping glass.
I've paddled a bunch of poly Neckys and it seems like the ones built in the last few seasons have quality issues: things like leaky bulkheads and skegs that get stuck.
I'm assuming you're wanting a poly boat for things like rock gardens, etc. Paddling plastic is nice in that way- the sound of scraping plastic on rocks isn't nearly as cringe inducing as the sound of scraping glass.
rider
Paddler
melonhead said:
This is both my opinion, and opinion of a couple experienced guides I've talked to. Thermoformed isn't nearly as strong on impact as poly, not infinetely repairable like fiberglass. And, for the most part, you'll notice that most thermoformed boats(most Deltas, most Eddylines) all have a fairly strong V to the bottom, to give the hull rigidity because all n all, the material itself is very flexible. Doesn't make for an exciting boat to paddle.
http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/communi ... ight=delta
Browse through this tread to save time.
And I repeat, sun exposure isn't much of an issue if you store the boat properly(out of the sun)....
rjoutnorth
Paddler
Good thread. I have an expedition yak and am thinking about getting a playboat around 16 ft long. In my research I have found that in comparison the P&H Capella 160 has quite a rigid plastic. Other models I'm looking at are the plastic Romany, Valley Avocet, Necky Chatham 16. From this thread I see Wilderness Systems Tempest 165 might also be a possibility. Rider you seem to have experience with a variety of plastic yaks. How would you (and any others on the forum) rate each of these yaks in terms of rough water use, surf, greenland rolling, general cockpit fit, construction, etc. I know there was a thread in the past about the ultimate plastic playboat but I think it was more towards a 14 or 15 ft yak.
Also I know the foam bulkheads do leak easily but it sounds like some silicon sealant seems to solve the problem. What about the hatch covers. Any problems with the rubber sealing with the plastic?
The plastic Romany has a fiberglass cockpit "ring" which I think would help with the sprayskirt staying on in the surf. Any comments on this?
Also I know the foam bulkheads do leak easily but it sounds like some silicon sealant seems to solve the problem. What about the hatch covers. Any problems with the rubber sealing with the plastic?
The plastic Romany has a fiberglass cockpit "ring" which I think would help with the sprayskirt staying on in the surf. Any comments on this?
rider
Paddler
I'll comment on what I know, and unfortunately it's not much :lol: On Capellas-I had a 166RM, and frankly I simply didn't dig how it handled in any kind of textured water. Just my opinion. Well built boat with good plastic though.
The Sirocco on the other hand, I am quite a fan of.
On hatches- I think by far the best rubber hatch configuration for a plastic boat is rims molded with boat and Kajak Sport covers. Bolt-on rims with Valley covers can have issues, mine I had to reseal,fine since.
If you look at a used boat with Valley covers, have a GOOD LOOK at condition of the covers inside and out, they dry rot in the sun if exposed for a long time and are not cheap. Brand specific covers can be a hit and miss, often miss.
On sprayskirts in surf-I've been tossed around pretty good in my Sirocco in the last surf session, and even though the seal of the sprayskirt to cockpit wasn't perfect, it stayed on perfectly. Most of my surf time so far was in my plastic Rip, and a properly sized skirt stays on it fine.
On greenland rolling- know nothing about it to be honest as far as practical application in a particular boat. Just not there yet skill wise. Having said that, the Chathams probably have the lowest rear deck of all plastic boats.
Cockpit fit. I sat in a Capella 160 and thought it spreads my legs in a way that wasn't comfortable. 166 felt good though.Hate the P&H crotch penetrator seats with a passion, and had to put heat gun to mine and reshape it before using the boat, but some people love them. My chatham is a 17 and a touch narrower than the 16.While the thigh braces are good, I find I can put more power to the braces in the Sirocco,so even though it's a wider boat, it rolls easier for me.
I can't really speak for Wildy Tempest, but their outfitting seems very comfy to me. I am quite looking forward to trying the new Zephyr one day.
On bulkhead sealant-I'd stay away from Silicone(nothing other than silicone will stick to it again), what I found to work best for me was Marine Goop.
The Sirocco on the other hand, I am quite a fan of.
On hatches- I think by far the best rubber hatch configuration for a plastic boat is rims molded with boat and Kajak Sport covers. Bolt-on rims with Valley covers can have issues, mine I had to reseal,fine since.
If you look at a used boat with Valley covers, have a GOOD LOOK at condition of the covers inside and out, they dry rot in the sun if exposed for a long time and are not cheap. Brand specific covers can be a hit and miss, often miss.
On sprayskirts in surf-I've been tossed around pretty good in my Sirocco in the last surf session, and even though the seal of the sprayskirt to cockpit wasn't perfect, it stayed on perfectly. Most of my surf time so far was in my plastic Rip, and a properly sized skirt stays on it fine.
On greenland rolling- know nothing about it to be honest as far as practical application in a particular boat. Just not there yet skill wise. Having said that, the Chathams probably have the lowest rear deck of all plastic boats.
Cockpit fit. I sat in a Capella 160 and thought it spreads my legs in a way that wasn't comfortable. 166 felt good though.Hate the P&H crotch penetrator seats with a passion, and had to put heat gun to mine and reshape it before using the boat, but some people love them. My chatham is a 17 and a touch narrower than the 16.While the thigh braces are good, I find I can put more power to the braces in the Sirocco,so even though it's a wider boat, it rolls easier for me.
I can't really speak for Wildy Tempest, but their outfitting seems very comfy to me. I am quite looking forward to trying the new Zephyr one day.
On bulkhead sealant-I'd stay away from Silicone(nothing other than silicone will stick to it again), what I found to work best for me was Marine Goop.
Gollum
Paddler
Chatham 16 Poly
I bought a Chatham 16 Poly last summer after making the mistake of buying a Prijon Barracuda earlier that year as my first kayak. The Prijon was very fast and for me, very unstable / tippy. It was a whiteknuckle ride everytime out in the Prijon. I was afraid to turn around to look behind lest I capsize.
The Chatham 16 on the otherhand is the complete opposite of the Prijon. I could fall asleep in this boat in 2 foot chop and be fine. I can't wait for large boat wakes to hit me 'cause it's so fun to ride them in the Chatham. The rougher the water the better in this boat. This boat also turns on a dime and reacts to a good stroke right now. I've even become "okay" at rolling this boat. I also love the cockpit, the low rear deck, the skeg, the thigh braces and the overall construction. I'm 5' 8" and 150 lbs and I feel like it was made for me personally, although I'm sure it will be great for other mid to small size paddlers too with the proper adjustment.
This is only my second kayak, but I couldn't be happier with it. My wife just got a Necky Eliza a couple weeks ago and now we're both looking toward some adventures in the Gulf Islands and west coast of the Island. Good luck in finding what you're looking for.
rjoutnorth said:
I bought a Chatham 16 Poly last summer after making the mistake of buying a Prijon Barracuda earlier that year as my first kayak. The Prijon was very fast and for me, very unstable / tippy. It was a whiteknuckle ride everytime out in the Prijon. I was afraid to turn around to look behind lest I capsize.
The Chatham 16 on the otherhand is the complete opposite of the Prijon. I could fall asleep in this boat in 2 foot chop and be fine. I can't wait for large boat wakes to hit me 'cause it's so fun to ride them in the Chatham. The rougher the water the better in this boat. This boat also turns on a dime and reacts to a good stroke right now. I've even become "okay" at rolling this boat. I also love the cockpit, the low rear deck, the skeg, the thigh braces and the overall construction. I'm 5' 8" and 150 lbs and I feel like it was made for me personally, although I'm sure it will be great for other mid to small size paddlers too with the proper adjustment.
This is only my second kayak, but I couldn't be happier with it. My wife just got a Necky Eliza a couple weeks ago and now we're both looking toward some adventures in the Gulf Islands and west coast of the Island. Good luck in finding what you're looking for.
lance_randy
Paddler
The Chatham 16 is sweet, isn't it. If I was going to buy a plastic play boat, this would be the one. The only downside to the Chatham 16, especially in poly, is that it's kinda slow. But for a killer smash 'em up poly day boat, speed isn't really an issue.