PYGMY ARCTIC TERN 14 - building Q&A

Discussion in 'Boat and Accessory Building' started by Mark_Schilling, Dec 11, 2005.

  1. Ddevore

    Ddevore New Member

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    Hatch Lips

    Hi Mark,

    I was curious as to your experience installing the hatch spacer strips. I'm about ready to put them in and I'm noticing the areas in which I'm going to install them are not quite smooth. I have some expoxy beading and tape ridges. Did you sand these areas very smooth before installing the spacers, or is the installation somewhat forgiving? I'm finding it's a very difficult area to smooth down.

    By the way, thanks for your (and others) advice on cutting the hatches early. Glueing the inside seam was much less difficult than it could have been.

    -Doug
     
  2. Mark_Schilling

    Mark_Schilling Paddler

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    Doug,

    The spacer strips are glued in with thickened epoxy, so that will take up some of the gaps and ridges, but try to scrape the ends of the seam tape as smooth as you can where the strips will bond. I don't think you have to really go to the trouble of sanding down to perfection, but if you're able to take all the big ridges out then you'll get a better bond on the even surface. Really, it all comes down to how thick a layer of thickened epoxy you want in there. If you can get it fairly smooth, you won't need a lot of epoxy and the bond will be that much better. You certainly don't want any big gaps or air bubbles that could lead to a failure, or your hatches could fall in and the result could be very unwelcome, to say the least. I spend a bit of time with a carbide scraper to get it all fairly even. Actually I did that on most of the underside of the deck anyways, as I didn't want the sharp edges created by the tape to become a hazard when entering the boat or reaching into hatches.
     
  3. Ddevore

    Ddevore New Member

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    Thanks Mark. I was hoping you'd say something like that. I've been concerned about some of the sharper edges in the hatch areas, so I think I'll smooth those out too. I epoxied the hatch spacer strips as your build log detailed and I'm hoping to put them in tomorrow after work. By the way, several of your build photos hang on my garage wall as guidance for a few of the steps.

    -Doug
     
  4. Oldpro

    Oldpro Paddler

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    Knee tube

    Mark;

    I'm interested in your comments about the knee tube; how little interference there is, and how useful it is. I'm at the stage of wiring my deck pieces together and still have time to do a knee tube too, but I wonder about clearance for my feet. I'll be installing SeaLine footbraces and I find things a bit crowded in my Tern 17 with those braces (with no tube). I've got a size 9 wide foot, and usually wear NRS booties. What's your shoe size?

    Oldpro
     
  5. Mark_Schilling

    Mark_Schilling Paddler

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    I wear a size 11 shoe, so my feet are quite big. I haven't found it to be a problem, but keep in mind I'm also used to having a knee tube in the Romany. You could always cut the tube short so it wouldn't interefere with your feet, and just plug the end.

    Another idea is to create an under-deck storage system that does not rely on a rigid tube. You could create something with a flexible (neoprene, mesh or other type of fabric) 'shelf' that would secure items snugly against the bottom of the deck. There are other possibilities of course; something removable etc.

    When you think of a kayak in terms of storage area, that's really the only space that commonly goes 'to waste'. And with boats that don't have a day hatch system, something in the cockpit under the deck can be a valuable space to keep items you might want to retreive without having to get out of the boat (assuming you're not paddling with others who can open one of your hatches etc.).
     
  6. Peel

    Peel Paddler

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    Mark,

    Just wondering how close to the ends you put your bow and stern padeyes, and if it was difficult to reach when you pulled the loop through the slot. On my Coho (at 3.5 feet longer than your Turn) the tip of the bow is 4' from the front edge of the future hatch. Even if the padeye is 12 inches back from the bow tip, that's well beyond my reach. I suppose I could always rig a thin line through the slot and then pull the padeye to it's location, though I can also imaging it dripping/smearing SikaFlexall along the way :(

    Just wondering what your experience was.
     
  7. Mark_Schilling

    Mark_Schilling Paddler

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    My end padeyes are just a little ways in from the little 'trident' pattern that the middle deck panels make with the join to the deck sheer panels. So, pretty close to the ends of the boat. The stern is a little easier to reach because the hatch opening is large enough that, with the boat inverted, I can get one arm and my head in there to reach farther. The bow was pretty tough to reach, and I ended up with more goopy SikaFlex on myself than I did on the padeye once it was positioned in place. I'm not sure I would have done it the same way if the boat were any longer - probably easier to do before the deck is secured to the hull, or arrive at another solution altogether for the end padeyes.

    I thought of trying to pull it into place by looping a piece of string or thin wire thru the padeye loop, and pulling it up into place by sticking the string up thru the slot first. In retrospect, I'm not sure that would have been any easier though - you'd still have to find a way to get the string or wire thru the inside of the slot, and it may not pull up squarely.
     
  8. Mark_Schilling

    Mark_Schilling Paddler

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    I've already got a number of reasonably deep scratches (into the keel strip etc.) and compression hits on the hull of the boat. I'm not overly concerned about them, as they're all just surface scratches (only one goes into the keel layer of glass; the rest are epoxy only damage). But, when it comes time to fix those up, will the new 'patch' of epoxy hide the white marks left by the scratches? What did you find on your Osprey repairs, Dan?
     
  9. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    You'll need to sand through the glass and put glass patches on them to get rid of the white marks. I left them on my double -- they're experience marks.

    *****
     
  10. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    True. And, even if you do this, chances are there will be some white marks at the edge of the orginal glass -- at least I can never completely get rid of the blame things!

    Sometimes I feel I should initial and date each major injury, to document the "experience" my boat gains! :wink:
     
  11. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    hi mark
    i remember you were having trouble with knocking the cam retainers free when doing some types of rescues.

    there's a thread on the kayakforum bbs about using 6" of bike tube as an over retainer to remedy this:

    http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Build ... ead/137137

    but it does make an already clunky approach approach chunky


    .
     
  12. Mark_Schilling

    Mark_Schilling Paddler

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    Well I certainly have enough old inner tubes lying around, so I'll give it a shot... but I agree, there has to be a more attractive way of keeping the hatches closed. I'd considered drilling a small hole in each cam, then securing it down with some sort of twist tie or retaining pin... but I'd like to keep it simple and quick to open. Especially considering that the T14 is short enough that I can actually open the rear hatch while I'm on the water! 8)
     
  13. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    another idea could maybe be mocked up by daren neufeld as he plays with metal like we play with plasticene. like what if the last 1in of the lever was offset toward the deck by 1/4" and what if the end of the lever had an open ended slot. say the slot was hooked at the opening.

    then you lever the weblatch tight, move the end of the lever sideways and tuck the offset 'hook' part under the weblatch. (the hook part sorta hooks the weblatch so can't move sideways.) would have to protect the hatch where the hook goes under to minimize scratching.
    the lever might have to be a little longer to sideways deflect.

    that would be as low profile as this system could possibly go and yet catch the ends much better than present and with less bits.

    worth a thought or mockup or so.


    another thought would be to do the same as above, but also inset a small rare earth magnet below where the new lever end goes under the weblatch. and of course in even the case above inset a slight depression in the hatch so that really flat - the lever under the weblatch doesn't raise the weblatch. magnet in depression.

    possibility.


    .
     
  14. DarenN

    DarenN Paddler

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    Mick, your idea of useing a magnet won't work. stainless is a non-ferrous metal and is not attracted to magnets. same for aluminum, brass, copper, monel, and some alloys. any ferrous metal will quickly corrode so we can't use that method. magnets corrode too. quickly.

    the sideways deflecting buckle idea has great merit. rather than use the main strap as the hook point i would probably sew another piece of webstrap on top of the main strap and use it as the buckle loop. it may leave the buckle a bit higher but not as high as Pygmys square 'D' ring and no chance of accidentally unhooking.

    DarenN......
     
  15. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    well, if you like the double web idea (i still prefer to use the tensioned weblatch as the vehicle to hold down the lever as flat as poss, and to have a depression into which the lever end sits) what abt moving the lever so the end is right beside a buckle end which itself is held low to one side. the weblatch to the buckle so the free end returns under the tension weblatch, attach if desired and hook the hook betw the 2. if wanted a custom fitting, design whichever side of the buckle desired (female best as drains) to snap recieve the hook maybe.

    stainless is ferrous (made from iron), but maybe it just isn't attractive - even though it is, heh heh.
     
  16. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Two different uses of the word ferrous: ferromagnetic is what Daren meant.

    Man, not sure I grokked what Mick is describing, but most of these fixes sound tricky and complex.

    I've used this style of hatch closure a lot (Eddyline boats, CD boats) and not had problems -- but I really make 'em tight -- maybe that is all Mark needs to do?
     
  17. DarenN

    DarenN Paddler

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    thanks for the clear-up Dave. :D i was just going to say 'we call it non-ferrous so as not to confuse the bosses and apprentices.'

    Mick's internet short-hand can be a bit confusing but you get used to it after a while. he doesn't really look like a mad scientist :D even though he sometimes sounds like one. true genious is rarely understood.

    DarenN......
     
  18. DarrenM

    DarrenM Paddler

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  19. chodups

    chodups Paddler

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    Mick,
    I've used sections of inner tubes on my Tern 14 & Coho for 4 years. You don't need 6" of the stuff. It looks fine to me but I'm pretty pragmatic about such things. From my point of view it cleans up the looks and keeps the buckles secure.
     
  20. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    that of course makes great sense.

    but there are a few kooks out there like me that love the simplicity of the kayak and have to have the pragmatic and yet strive and yearn for (by imagination at least) as minimal intervention possible to achieve the absolutely necessary.

    for example i want or wish for (in a hatch system):

    - an aesthetically pleasing and functionally slimline or invisible latching system that cannot be inadvertently opened by sliding rescues on other yaks or rescuees clambering all over.
    - a very sure sealing approach that will adjust to the slight movements of the yak understress
    - a sealing approach that is not just 'face seal' - one that approaches sealing from 2 or 3 directions ie a designed drain screen approach
    -uses gaskets that do not require major force to deflect but that will deflect over a big range. (neoprene or foam or weather seal gasket are all crap - we should all be using hollow gaskets. like look at car doors - they seal under most rigourous circumstances and yet we(yak designers) dont follow that common simple gasket approach??? like how dumb are we?)
    -typicaly places the gasket on the hatchlid to reduce damage when loading and make easy to take away and fix and dry if nec.
    - a closing system that does not introduce more distorting force deflecting the deck (like all over the top latch approaches and all internal bungee approaches) but that in fact will transfer both tension and compression forces thru/across the hatch from deck to deck. ie the hatch contributes to stress/strain transfer rather than add to it
    - a closing system that automatically restrains the hatch rather than none or bits inaddition to bits in addition to bits

    and i want all that (and a few more aspects) all in a completely clean and aesthetic hatch. that's the type of yearning that some have.

    so here at least, there'll always be what ifs? no matter what the approach is.


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