Pygmy Osprey Double questions

Kault316

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Jul 12, 2020
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Cultus Lake
I feel like I won the lottery! Thanks to John A for putting me in touch with Doug from Main Island who just sold me his 80% complete Osprey double.
Remaining work
combing, complete hatches (the holes are cut), rudder install, rigging, seats, and final finishing - still a bit daunting after an eleven year hiatus from coho building.
I have two questions for the group
1. This boat did not come with a rudder kit so I am open to any suggestions as to the preferred kit to purchase and install these days.
2. It also appears to be missing bulkheads. Does anyone have any Osprey bulkhead templates or tricks for creating one? Or can connect me to someone who knows about these things.
I'm going to install a center hatch from scratch so I'll need to create another bulkhead and cut a new hole and create the lip for that hole. Any ideas for that would be appreciated.
Cheers
 

mick_allen

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2) bulkheads will be a snap: at the location you want, sparingly hot glue 4 or 5 of vertical wood tabs all around and hot glue a irregular shaped corrugated cardboard shape that fills the interior as best you can. Then just glue [hot or white] long darts all around the shape reaching out and touching the inner surface at each joint and maybe halfway in between at the wider panels.
Voila, take out and connect the peaks and you have a bulkhd shape. There might be rounding at some fillet/joint locations but essentially that's all there is to it.

The reason to take a measurement at halfway pts of wider panels in curved areas is that it is not always a straight line in betweeh the joints perpendicular to 3d curved shapes.

ps - and what a find!
 

Kault316

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Cultus Lake
2) bulkheads will be a snap: at the location you want, sparingly hot glue 4 or 5 of vertical wood tabs all around and hot glue a irregular shaped corrugated cardboard shape that fills the interior as best you can. Then just glue [hot or white] long darts all around the shape reaching out and touching the inner surface at each joint and maybe halfway in between at the wider panels.
Voila, take out and connect the peaks and you have a bulkhd shape. There might be rounding at some fillet/joint locations but essentially that's all there is to it.

The reason to take a measurement at halfway pts of wider panels in curved areas is that it is not always a straight line in betweeh the joints perpendicular to 3d curved shapes.

ps - and what a find!
Awesome trick. Question: by darts, do you mean strips of cardboard that radiate out to the inner hull? Or I was thinking of wooden BarBQ scures Anyway, I think I'm seeing your method.
 

mick_allen

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yup, scrap cardboard or thin sticks [stirstick, popsicle stick, scrap stick] 1/2" wide x whatever length cut across the end at an angle and that sharp angle end just touching the panel joints. And just simply glued to the face of the irregular flat cardboard - irregular 'cause why waste time trying to get something close when the 'darts' do all the work. Use white glue or hot glue - thin white glue is virtually instantaneous is thin smear. Lay down on better cardbd template material, connect dots, cut out and modify fit inside yak - then transfer outline to bulkhd material.

Oh yeah, I should add that it would be a good idea to carefully look over the alignment of what you now have as there may be some things a little out of whack . . . and this is a last chance opportunity to readjust if necessary:
- run a line, if you can, from bow to stern [maybe laser if have one] and see if the beam at the ctr of the boat is centred from the line.
- set it up level at the ctr [sheerline to sheerline] and sight the bow and stern and see if twisted from vertical.
- when you take each bulkhead shape, check if from deckpk to keel that each side is a semi-decent mirror of each other.

[some recess thoughts for fun: https://www.westcoastpaddler.com/co...ed-rear-coaming-modification.5428/#post-68842]
 
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JohnAbercrombie

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What Mick describes for fitting bulkheads is exactly what I do, too.
:thumbsup:
For rudders: I've used the Smarttrack rudders on several boats I've built and I'm happy with them. They use a coil spring in the blade to keep the rudder 'down' in the water, with a single line to retract. The blades are sold separately from the rudder mechanism; there's a longer blade available which SmartTrack calls the 'Tandem' though it's useful on any kayak to help keeping the blade in the water in waves. They don't work well for boats where the rudder is only used 'sometimes' as they don't stow the blade down on the deck. But I'd think the Osprey would be a 'rudder all the time' boat??
Tom at TopKayaker has given me good service for rudders and other kayak parts.
For rudder pedals, something DIY or buying the footpedals from Stellar would be my preference over the side-mounted Smart-Track 'gas pedals'.
Mac50L has plans for a DIY rudder pedal at:
https://canterburyseakayak.wordpress.com/rudder-pedals/
 

Kault316

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Jul 12, 2020
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Cultus Lake

Kault316

Paddler
Joined
Jul 12, 2020
Messages
68
Location
Cultus Lake
yup, scrap cardboard or thin sticks [stirstick, popsicle stick, scrap stick] 1/2" wide x whatever length cut across the end at an angle and that sharp angle end just touching the panel joints. And just simply glued to the face of the irregular flat cardboard - irregular 'cause why waste time trying to get something close when the 'darts' do all the work. Use white glue or hot glue - thin white glue is virtually instantaneous is thin smear. Lay down on better cardbd template material, connect dots, cut out and modify fit inside yak - then transfer outline to bulkhd material.

Oh yeah, I should add that it would be a good idea to carefully look over the alignment of what you now have as there may be some things a little out of whack . . . and this is a last chance opportunity to readjust if necessary:
- run a line, if you can, from bow to stern [maybe laser if have one] and see if the beam at the ctr of the boat is centred from the line.
- set it up level at the ctr [sheerline to sheerline] and sight the bow and stern and see if twisted from vertical.
- when you take each bulkhead shape, check if from deckpk to keel that each side is a semi-decent mirror of each other.

[some recess thoughts for fun: https://www.westcoastpaddler.com/co...ed-rear-coaming-modification.5428/#post-68842]
Thanks. Any suggestions for sourcing some plywood for these new bulkheads?
 

JohnAbercrombie

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Thanks. Any suggestions for sourcing some plywood for these new bulkheads?
If you have epoxy and fiberglass you can use anything you can get your hands on: doorskins, luan plywood? Once both sides are glassed with epoxy they will work; no need for marine grade. Strip kayak builders sometimes glue up a panel of strips and glass that. Or you could just lay up glass panels with epoxy and glass cloth, which is more expensive but works just fine.
I've seen kayaks where the builder found flat fiberglass panel material at a building supply- there are lots of possibilities.
As long as the bulkhead is properly installed with good epoxy fillets on both sides, you will be fine.
 

Mac50L

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South Island, New Zealand

Mac50L

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For rudders: I've used the Smarttrack rudders on several boats I've built and I'm happy with them.
For rudder pedals, something DIY or buying the foot-pedals from Stellar would be my preference over the side-mounted Smart-Track 'gas pedals'.
Mac50L has plans for a DIY rudder pedal at:
https://canterburyseakayak.wordpress.com/rudder-pedals/
The first two kayaks I built back in 1983 had Smarttrack style rudders fitted and about a year after building and a couple of decades before Smarttrack "invented" and "patented" their version.
Basically a crude vertical stow rudder and very simple to make. I didn't use a spring to pull down, just a string and bungy on it to hold the blade down.

All my kayaks after that had Dagger-board rudders that were "patented" in the USA a couple of decades after a couple of companies had been producing them and fitting them in New Zealand.
For different types of rudders -

The pedals suggested by John (my design) are simple to make and the easiest to adjust. Having the leg length adjustment just in front of the seat can't be easier.
 

JohnAbercrombie

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The pedals suggested by John (my design) are simple to make and the easiest to adjust. Having the leg length adjustment just in front of the seat can't be easier.
Those foot pedals that Mac50L has designed are worth considering. But few things are as perfect as we might like.
I've built foot supports with a single center rail (years ago). If you use leg drive when paddling, they will shift a very small amount from side to side with every paddle stroke- without that movement, they would be unable to slide on the center rail.. Making the wood-to-wood fit tight in a spot where water sloshes around is an invation to problems. It's probably not a big deal in terms of efficiency, but I found the small movement (and 'clacking') irritating. I prefer something more solid-feeling when bracing.
Perhaps that's the reason no commercial imitations have been developed?
My recent DIY footplate pedals have used 3 points of attachment: center rail and sides. That's the same style used by some of the Epic and Stellar kayaks. As amateur builders, we work to amuse ourselves, not for money. If I were paying myself an hourly wage, the DIY pedals would probably cost more than the BigFoot! And the BigFoot is definitely more rugged. And a bit heavy. And if you paddle bare footed (you'd be foolish to do this in BC where rocky landings are common), the aluminum angle side rails could be a hazard. So again, the BigFoot is not perfect.
"Holes in the boat'- I've heard that before. Not very beautiful, I admit. But many millions of 'kayak-hours' later, I think it's clear that we don't need to worry about boat catastrophes because of those through-fasteners. If you've ever had to remove and replace an internal stud (see a recent post here when I did that , on the 'easier' stud close to the cockpit) you will appreciate the simpler through-hull machine screws. Many boats with those intenal studs use smaller fasteners than the standard through hull screws.
Quick adjustment for leg length is a bit over-rated unless the boat is in a rental operation IMO.
The BigFoot requires loosening a couple of Philips screws on the sliding bar, unscrewing two large thumbscrew 'butterfly-head' machine screws, sliding the footbar to a new position, and re-fastening. It's about the same amount of trouble as undoing the two nuts at the seat attachment for the footbars on a Mariner sliding seat. I guess I've gotten used to it, because I don't find it a big deal.
 

mick_allen

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here's an actual commercial one from lettman:

My aesthetic prejudice is against exposed shiny [or corroded, or whatever] bolt heads, and my structural prejudice is against allowing the huge cantilevered force that I'd periodically put on a centre rail no matter the construction material. If it was for a single purpose boat, there'd be no problem, with a multi-purpose or playboat, big problem.
 
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Mac50L

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here's an actual commercial one from lettman:

My aesthetic prejudice is against exposed shiny [or corroded, or whatever] bolt heads, and my structural prejudice is against allowing the huge cantilevered force that I'd periodically put on a centre rail no matter the construction material. If it was for a single purpose boat, there'd be no problem, with a multi-purpose or playboat, big problem.
An interesting looking thing. The question, what hinges? The pedals appear to be bolted to the foot brace. Those bolts might be to hinges on the other side but nothing to show.

I've never had a centre bar bend and Paul Caffyn (around Australia, around the coast of Alaska, etc. etc.) using a slightly different centre mount has never had a problem that I've heard of.

As for metal and salt water, good metal plating or the right stainless steel does help.
 

mick_allen

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Let's steer [!] this discussion back to what Kault might need or want to know rather than asides to support/fight our [my!] various particular prejudices.

For his purposes, my guess is that gas pedals will be the easiest to add if he wishes both ckpts to have control at times. . . it could be set up like the seaward or an alternative is some minor fiddling on the beach for either approach. It probably makes a lot of sense to allow the front paddler directional control as they see things first - but of course that's a separate conversation, but allowing the capability might not be.

For the rudder type , if it's to be a transom-type, the kayak will be longer and two gudgeon brackets will have to be added to the back - probably glassed if no internal block there. If a pinhead [sliding or rotating] rudder is chosen, an internal block must be present to drill into for the rudder pin. Each rudder type had their separate drawbacks and advantages so probably a saw-off.

Oh yeah, the osprey stern is vertical and also is relatively flat and horizontal on top, so either transom or pinheads can be accommodated. [A pointy stern upturned stern is more difficult to rudder structurally, functionably, and aesthetically.]
 
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Kault316

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It is great to hear you gurus discussing these options. I am very inexperienced in fabricating new innovations. I contacted Bigfoot and they apologetically admitted that their system won't go wide enough for this big double and then there's the price. I've ordered a set of Sealect gas pedal controls for the usual rear cockpit set up. I've ordered the Smart Track tandem rudder that defaults back to the horizontal position for more efficient storage. Unfortunately, this boat will have to live outside so I've bought a classy boat cover and the plan is to hang it ten feet or so in the air between mine and the neighbor's house (only 4 feet between houses and we've no yard)
 
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