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should my first kayak be a home build?..

tiagosantos

Paddler
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
323
Location
Port Coquitlam BC
Howdy!

Despite a long time fascination with kayaks, I only recently actually tried getting on a boat.. And surprise, I loved it!

I plan to rent a couple more times and do a couple more lessons, but after that I find it a bit hard to justify paying the rental fees.

Looking at kayak prices, a new kayak isn't gonna happen. So I started looking into used boats. However, I'm really into doing things myself and building my own kayak is very alluring :) mostly because I can't seem to justify spending +++$1000 on the kind of kayak I'd like to have, while I have access to tools that could make a simple build go fairly fast. My thought would be to either start with a fuselage style SOF (leaning towards adapting Brian Schultz's F1 to a plywood fuselage build..) or a stitch and glue (also thought about trying to adapt the F1). I have the opportunity to use a large CNC router which could save a bit of time cutting the forms or the panels for a S&G build..

Am I being silly? Should I just spend the money on a plastic boat from Craigslist? :)

To add a bit more - I don't see myself going on trips longer than a day trip or a very sporadic overnight trip. I have a dog that is a bit problematic so going away for more than a day or, rarely, two isn't really an easy possibility. So I don't necessarily need a ton of cargo room. I'm also attracted to the concept of a fairly light weight boat - I haven't found a hobby where extra weight was an advantage :D I'm 5'11, 150lbs, so I'd rather not have to load a 65lb kayak onto my car all the time.. I'm mostly interested in flat water paddling and just.. You know, being out there. I love the simplicity of the skin on frame boats and how great they look. I don't think they'll be a hindrance to the kind of paddling I'm hoping to do, but I'd love to hear your feedback. Should I buy something decent first and wait for a chance to build a kayak purely for the novelty of building it, or can a first time build actually be usable and satisfying for a novice paddler?

Thanks! :)
 
You've given this quite a bit of thought already.

I started kayak paddling about 10 years ago. After renting a few times, and taking a few pool lessons, I built myself a boat.
The next year I built myself another, quite different style of kayak.

I no longer have either of those boats, and I ended up selling them for less than the cost of the materials.

It wasn't until years later, after having taken a number of kayak courses and improving my skills, that I really knew what sort of boat I wanted. By that point, I also had some basic knowledge of how to evaluate the boats I paddled.

I now own a 'few' :) boats, both commercial and home-built, of different types, and I am happy with them all.

I would have been smarter to spend my time and money at the outset on more training and skill development than on boat building....but the boat building was a 'better fit' for me and seemed to make sense at the time.

Good day-paddling boats do come up on the used market, though you might have to be a bit patient.
 
Tiagosantos,

The lure of building your own boat is a siren call, for sure.

Bottom line on a stitch and glue boat using quality marine plywood is that a kit gives you everything you need as well as a proven design with decent resale value, typically enough to cover the cost of the original kit, and not much more. A DIY stitch and glue will save the markup the kit manufacfurer has on the kit, but at the expense of considerable labor cutting the panels, even with a CNC router, and likely some added bucks spent on mistakes and redos. Resale value will not be as good, meaning you will not recoup the cost of materials.

OTOH, a skin on frame boat might be less costly overall, with a lot of designs out there. The down side to fabric coated boats is sharp stones and barnacly beaches can make you a patching demon. Resale? Keep the boat and hang it on the wall, a testimony to the experience of construction.

As John intimates, everyone who sticks with this paddling game evolves and their stable does also.

Were it me, my impatience to get on the water would mandate a kit stitch and glue. While paddling that, I could explore other options. You won't know what you want until after several months of paddling and leering lasciviously at other hulls. Sort of a first girl friend phenomenon, to stretch the metaphor a bit.
 
If you're so inclined, building your own boat can be quite rewarding and fun.

My first boat was a stitch and glue Pygmy double that I built from a kit so that I could take my kids paddling. My second boat was a skin on frame single that a friend built and my next boat was a Pygmy Coho - a fabulous boat. My daughter also built her own boat from a kit.

Building your own boat does save you a bit of money (not a huge amount and there's a considerable time investment) but you get to paddle something that you built yourself but don't build because you want to save money, build because you want to paddle a boat you built. It's not for everyone but if building things is something that you enjoy and you have the space to do it, it's definitely worth considering.

You can view journals of my and my daughters boats in our Boat/Accessory Building section (as well as a couple other builds).

If you go this route, it would be wise to follow Dave's recommendation to build a stitch and glue kit rather than a stripper as a first boat -- it's a lot quicker and easier than a strip boat.
 
Thanks for the comments folks!

You're right, I have given it quite a bit of thought - too much thought perhaps :)

Dan, I understand what you say about picking the right motivations for building a boat.. Realistically, if I spend the 40, 60, 100 hours (or whatever it would take me to build a boat) at my day job, I'll have made enough money to buy two good boats! But I've never been one to think that way :p I built my own CNC mill.. Probably saved 5 grand over a similarly capable commercial machine - but it took a couple years and maybe 300 hours working on it :)

Anyway, I will definitely take this advice to heart. I agree that if I build my first boat, I should do it as quickly and as cheaply as I can (skin on frame..) And go from there. But I will be keeping an eye on the classifieds and craigslist for something cheap but half decent!
 
Since you are pretty handy, consider building a boat from plans. My 3rd kayak was a Chesapeake Light Craft (CLC) Patuxent 17 (now an extinct model, but a fast and pretty boat), stitch-and-glue, that I built from CLC's plans--$50, as I recall, for the plans. I greatly enjoyed building the boat, and, after I had completed the hull, I decided to create my own cockpit and deck, rather than stick with the CLC plan, and did so. The fun of stitch-and-glue plywood construction is that you can modify the boat any way you want as you build it, once the stitch-and-glue method becomes second nature to you. With plywood, epoxy, hardware, etc., I figure the boat cost me maybe $250, back in 1995. Paddled the boat until I got my Epic 16X in 2009. It is still in use with a new owner.
 
Thanks for the added comments!

I did take a look at Tom Yost's website, lots of good stuff there for sure :) that's what made me think I could build a SOF kayak without breaking the bank..

I should try to find local costs for good quality sheets of plywood, but does anyone care to guess of there would be a major difference in cost of materials for a S&G vs a SOF boat? I'm guessing the ballistic nylon is more expensive than the fiberglass layers you'd use on a S&G, but the plywood surely adds quite a bit to the cost, eh?
 
tiagosantos said:
I did take a look at Tom Yost's website, lots of good stuff there for sure :) that's what made me think I could build a SOF kayak without breaking the bank..

I should try to find local costs for good quality sheets of plywood, but does anyone care to guess of there would be a major difference in cost of materials for a S&G vs a SOF boat? I'm guessing the ballistic nylon is more expensive than the fiberglass layers you'd use on a S&G, but the plywood surely adds quite a bit to the cost, eh?

For some typical marine plywood costs, see Westwind
http://www.westwindhardwood.com/products/fine-woods/marine-plywood.php
If you are trying to build on a low budget, you could consider using lumberyard 'doorskin' plywood. If you are interested in resale value, using marine plywood might be better.

IMO, SOF boats are 'something completely different' from other kayak types, so trying to compare them with S&G on a cost basis might not be very useful.

Don't overlook the cost of epoxy (S&G) or 'goop' (nylon/polyester SOF). Some of the fuselage SOF boats use heavy vinyl tarp material.

If you are really on a budget, IMO the cheapest way to go is to buy a decent plastic boat on the used market for <$1000, paddle the *heck* out of it, and then sell it for a few hundred dollars less.

Remember the 'other stuff' like sprayskirt, paddle, spare paddle, pump, paddlefloat, flotation bags, PFD, immersion clothing, footwear, etc etc $ $ $ The boat is just the start..
 
Doorskin plywood often has voids in odd places, and patches on one side, mandating more attention to careful fiberglassing. When you consider all the labor in a stitch and glue boat, marine plywood makes more sense despite the much higher investment in materials. On resale, a doorskin boat will not return as much as one made of marine plywood.

I have not costed these out, but if you have a decent source of western red cedar, I suspect a stripper is cheaper materialswise. Lumber yard clear WRC will kill you for cost. Gotta find a mill that will do rough cut lumber, one pass through the saw, and some cedar. Olney mill near me is one good source.
 
I've built two kayaks using stitch-and-glue, and have fiberglassed neither of them. The first, a Granta kit, I just varnished over the epoxy coating. The second, the mutant CLC Patuxent, I painted with bright red and yellow enamel. I wasn't interested in a high finish because my boats take a pounding over the years, and I don't have the discipline to achieve or preserve a mirror-like finish on a boat anyway--I just want to get out onto the water. So, if you forgo fiberglass and other such fussiness on a stitch-and-glue boat, much time and money can be saved.
 
Strange Magic said:
I've built two kayaks using stitch-and-glue, and have fiberglassed neither of them. The first, a Granta kit, I just varnished over the epoxy coating.............................. So, if you forgo fiberglass and other such fussiness on a stitch-and-glue boat, much time and money can be saved.

Aside from the huge increase in stiffness and impact/abrasion resistance provided, using fiberglass cloth provides a convenient 'film thickness gauge' for any epoxy coating that you're planning to put on the boat.
I've read reports of S&G builds where the builder 'just taped' (fiberglass tape) the seams and coated the rest with epoxy. When I worked out the cost, it was almost as cheap for me to use cloth and 'glass' the entire boat vs taping with woven tape. Using cut fabric strips is cheap (and sometimes necessary) but is quite a bit of work, and it's tough to avoid stray threads lying on the surface, and the overlaps need sanding.

After putting on the cloth/epoxy, there's still lots of scope for 'quick and dirty' boatbuilding techniques - far from the glass-like finish. A S&G nesting dinghy, glassed and painted with latex house paint, that I made in 3 days in '98 ('it will be OK for a year or two', I said) is still going strong, AFAIK. I like painted kayaks and that's the way I build nowadays.

You also need to suit the boat to the conditions of use. A lot of the reports I read about fuselage boats covered in vinyl/PVC are from users who paddle on sandy/muddy lakes - quite different from the barnacle-encrusted rocks my boats seem to find.

'Horses for courses' as the saying goes...
 
Not a lot of extra work to fiberglass a SNG hull and do it right, to prolong the lifetime of the boat. For sure, a boat used on rocky shores or in surf needs the extra strength and resistance to hull penetration. Sandy, muddy shorelines, no surf, sure, skip it.

CLC used to skip FG on the inside of their hulls, and that I can understand. One 6 oz layer on the outside of the hull provides protection where needed the most. Some glass where your feet scuff the inside is a good idea, also. Knew a guy who skipped the FG on the back deck entirely, but rued the decision when he holed it during self rescue .... with his elbow!
 
Hi folks,

I should clarify that I don't necessarily depend on building the cheapest boat possible to get on the water! I am thankful to have a great job and enough money to spend on "toys".. That said, I do enjoy being as thrifty as I can! If (or rather when...) I end up building a boat (I don't think I mentioned I'll have to build two.. My wife isn't keen on staying home watching TV!) I will do my best to build it as cheaply as I can, but still do it "right". Not that there's anything wrong with cutting corners here and there, but I want to be proud of whatever I build and do my best to make it last a while :)

I've been doing some searching on Craigslist and similar websites and seems like there are some good deals to be found in WA.. I guess it's mostly luck and patience with finding the REALLY good deals, but it seems there are more boats for sale across the border and for significantly cheaper prices. Might be worth a short road trip especially if I find two good deals near each other!

Anyway, we'll see how this plays out. We're gonna keep taking lessons and paddling for the rest of the summer. At the same time, I'm doing some major surgery on my race car and trying to get it ready for a race in mid September. Once that's out of the way, I'll have room in the garage for building the boats - so I think it makes sense to keep an eye out for the right ready-made boats and if nothing pops up until then, I'll start piecing out the builds.

I appreciate all of your comments and I will keep all of this in mind, thank you all again!
 
Forgot to mention re: glassing SNG boat: some doorskins and even some marine plywood will check if subjected to repeated cycles of wetness and full dryout in the hot sun. Certainly ordinary fir or hemlock plywood will check, even if you protect the wood with epoxy, but withold the glass. This is a really unhappy experience, which I have had myself, on a truck box made from quality AC plywood. The cure was to sand and fill, then glass the box. After the glass, box showed no sign of checking, throughout the remaining 6 years I owned it.
 
If I lived in your area where there are lots of used boats available I would buy a used boat or 2 as you develop your skills. Kayaks seem to hold there value well once there a few years old. And build one in your spare time as you are handy and have the tools. Living in eastern alberta I worked overtime and bought new.
 
I built my first 2 sea kayaks back in 1983. Since then built and designed a few more. The double circumnavigated Vanu Levu, Fiji soon after it was built. Largely I read and taught myself and with a few sea kayak forums over the years.

Kit or plans - the time saved by using a kit vs plans is minimal compared with te total build time. Use a carpenter's hand saw to cut the panels, gives a better curved cut rather than "wiggles" if using a jigsaw.

Allow 100 hours for the first one, about 3 months of an hour or 2 a night.

I don't recommend glassing anything other than the seams. Cloth cut on the diagonal, about 2" wide. The strands won't fall off the edges and each strand is "working". glassing everythig will add to the weight as about 3 times as much epoxy is used over a glassed surface vs the straight wood.

Plywood - good light 3 mm (possibly 4 mm for the bottom planks). I usually use 3 mm and can turn out a 13 kg hull, 18 kg fully fitted out with hatch covers, rigging, rudder, etc. Strength? Yes I have kayaks which have been repaired, dropping a hull on to the corner of a workbench from the ceiling isn't a good idea. getting blown off the roofrack and clipping the end of a bar on the way over can dent things. At sea, never a problem and that includes usually bouncing off rocks on most trips.

If you are going to build the hull, why not make your own paddles too. A good Greenland is the way to go. Use a 20 mm thick plank and build up the required thickness with the off-cuts to save wastage.

https://sites.google.com/site/kayakamf/ ... nd-paddles

Rudder pedals -

https://sites.google.com/site/kayakamf/ ... der-pedals

Paddle length considerations -

http://www.kask.org.nz/category/equipment/

A list of plans -

http://www.kask.org.nz/category/web-resources/
 
I built my first two boats. Both Pygmys. A Tern 14 and a Coho. Both were great boats..............the thing I discovered is that building boats gave me an emotional tie to them that slowed my paddling develoment. Every boat is a classroom and when tied to a boat I found that I was repeating my classes. I couldn't progress because neither boat was good at what I wanted to learn. Great boats but not then end-all-do-all.

I don't see myself ever building another boat because what would I build that I can't buy and easily get rid of when I should? I know. Strength. Light weight. Yada-yada-yada. They are just boats and I need to treat them as such. I try to keep a boat no longer than two years or until I start feeling like they aren't helping me.

It's coming close to the time to move my Illusion and maybe my Tempest 170 to afford a Grand Illusion.

Jon
http://3meterswell.blogspot.com
 
chodups said:
I built my first two boats. Both Pygmys. A Tern 14 and a Coho. Both were great boats..............the thing I discovered is that building boats gave me an emotional tie to them that slowed my paddling develoment.

"slowed my paddling develoment." - how?

One I built was tortured ply and from it learned to brace, brace instinctively. If you built a Shrike it would be a good boat to learn to roll in. There's 2 things to learn that just buying another plastic boat won't necessarily teach you.

As for replacing every 2 years, my partner built her first well over a decade ago and was using one of mine until she finished it. The first time it got wet was the start of a 9 day trip, new design, new kayak. Design? "Stand beside this tape measure, stand on the scales, cut along the dotted line....." Yes, she is probably going to replace it with a lighter one (same design), being a regular builder, e.g. once a decade. Unfortunately a new house and then servere earthquakes have slowed the building.

Commercially designed kayaks - we found out how badly things can be done when doing an 8 day trip in the Queen Charlotte Islands last year. Badly fitted out kayaks (no decklines), they pounded in any chop (constant V instead of changing along the length), badly designed and way too long paddles. Build your own and taylor to your requirements.
 
This topic and exchange of views shows how varied are our several approaches to boats and to sea kayaking. Chodups writes of keeping boats for about 2 years, as he's found that having a boat longer slows his development as a kayaker. I looked back at my own past fleet and found that I kept one boat for 14 years, another for 10, and a third for 25 (obviously overlapping one another), and am on the 5th year for the newest boat. I have totally enjoyed, to the point of occasional ecstasy, my kayaking over those years, seeking to fulfill each particular day's need for adventure, security, and beauty, and have only given occasional conscious thought to further developing as a kayaker. I suppose the ideal sea kayaker would combine the skills of Dubside, Greg Barton, Paul Caffyn, and Eric Soares (name your own pantheon), and would work relentlessly to achieve mastery over all such paths and environments. I just like to go paddling, keeping well within my own envelope, and have thoroughly enjoyed myself now for some 30-plus years on tidewater. There is thus certainly enough water for all sorts of approaches to having a fulfilling sea kayaking experience. It's good to read about the variety of such experiences.
 
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