The "Larger Paddler"...

Discussion in 'General Paddling Discussions' started by Jurfie, Aug 13, 2007.

  1. Jurfie

    Jurfie Paddler

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    ...what does this exactly mean? I've been reading up on different kayaks looking for one that will fit my 6'-6" frame and size-12/13 feet (I'm curious, as I want to see which kayaks in a rental fleet I should try), and the term "larger paddler" is one often used to describe certain boats.

    Is "larger paddler" used to refer to people of the long-legged variety, or is it a polite way of saying "pudgy paddler"? Just wondering... :?
     
  2. DarenN

    DarenN Paddler

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    hi Jurfie;

    I'd say you fit into the 'larger' catagory, just by your hieght and shoe size, and without knowing your weight.

    as an example, our paddling pal, GregN is over six feet tall and trim and fit. he would be considered a larger paddler. he found my Chatham 17 to be too tender for him.

    i'm 5'10-11" and weigh 175# and would be considered an average sized paddler. anyone under about 150# could be considered small, unless they are incredibly 'tall and thin'.

    hope that helps;
    DarenN.........
     
  3. Jurfie

    Jurfie Paddler

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    It helps a lot, thanks. I've been wondering if the term referred more to the cockpit size than the legroom. From what I've gathered, and read on here, I'm probably going to have to look at the HV boats, mostly due to foot size (where my feet are compared to the tapers of the deck and hull).

    BTW, I'm hovering around 225lbs, give or take 5lbs. I used to be skinny for my height (160ish), but then I hit my late-20s and now early-30s and it appears life has caught up with my metobolism. ;-)
     
  4. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Jurfie, I'm also a larger paddler, and only 5-10 and 220 lbs. It does not take much to get outside the "normal" envelope for cockpits. For me, it is mostly underdeck height, such that only HV boats are comfortable. Slim ones force my legs to run out too straight, and with no ability to bend my knees.

    I like to refer to myself as "a big guy in the cockpit area," but that may be a hollow boast. :wink: :wink: :lol:
     
  5. greg0rn

    greg0rn Paddler

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    Jurfie, I think that my 6'4" and 215 lbs place me in the larger paddler category, even if silhouette appears to be on the skinny side.

    There are two things to consider: centre of gravity and waist size. My centre of gravity is positioned high above water and therefore I have a need for a more stable kayak. On the other side, due to my poor agility (my bones are well aged) I need a larger cockpit, and so would a fellow with waist of 44 or so.

    There are a few kayaks that fit me fine: Nimbus Telkwa, or better yet - Telkwa HV, Current Design Storm, Feathercraft Big Kahuna and K-I. I presently paddle Feathercraft Klondike, which is a small double with single cockpit configuration.
     
  6. westcoastwill

    westcoastwill Paddler

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    Jo Greg, i hope to see you in a big Kahuna next year!

    [​IMG]

    :wink:

    Willi
     
  7. greg0rn

    greg0rn Paddler

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    Willi, I'd love to have a Big Kahuna, or better yet, a KI for your next visit and the Broken Group trip. However, my finance manager is not that supportive of the idea and besides, the party is almost over, so we have to be careful with managing our financial resources to fully enjoy the retirement.

    Actually I'm quite happy with my Klondike:


    [​IMG]

    [/img]
     
  8. woodensoul

    woodensoul Paddler

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    Larger Paddler can also refer to weight. From a design perspective many boats are based on a design weight of around 250 pounds. This means that all the stats they can tell you or should be able to tell you about the boat are accurate with 250 pounds of load. This is stuff like wetted area, prismatic coeficient, block coefficient, etc. You can read up on this stuf but basically its an indicator of how the boat should perform. Typically when you get too far above or below this design weight then the charactersitics of the boat change. So if you are 250 pounds, you should try to find a boat with a larger design displacement, to give yourself room for gear and stay within the parameters the designer intended. Can't really help you with what you should look at in the commercial stuff, but that's the question you want to ask. Have fun!
     
  9. KPC

    KPC New Member

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    Well, i'm 250 lbs. at 5'10" height, but i carry my weight up high. That was the main reason i went with the Klepper Aerius. I did have to move the seating position as far back as possible to make the boat comfortable for me, but it was easilly accomplished and the boat fits me very well. It is rated at about 535 lbs. capacity so i still have room for gear.
    Just my $0.02

    Cheers.
     
  10. VI-2006

    VI-2006 Paddler

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    hi gregn

    may be your paddle should be a bit longer
     
  11. greg0rn

    greg0rn Paddler

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    VI, they used to be 240's. One day I tried a shorter paddle and loved it, so I cut them to 225's. Good length for my taste. My wife did not notice any difference.
     
  12. woodensoul

    woodensoul Paddler

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    Hi KPC, glad the boat is working for you. Just a note, Design Displacement is not Maximum Carrying Capacity. Again Design Displacement is the amount of load in the boat that makes the boat operate according to the specs listed by the designer. Maximum Carrying Capacity is a function of total volume. Basically a percentage of the total amount of weight a boat can carry before it sinks. 50% is a number used by some designers. Water weighs about 62 lbs per cu foot, So a boat that is 359 liters or 12.7 cu feet will have a max capacity of (12.7*62)*50% or about 394 pounds. This particular boat has a design displacement of 250 lbs. Loading it up to max capacity is probably not practical as its a 20" wide boat and fairly limmited in storage space. It probably would not be a lot of fun to paddle at that weight either. If you are doing a lot of extended paddling you want a boat with a design displacement close to your total average load. Hope I haven't confused things. :wink:
     
  13. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    woodensoul wrote; Maximum Carrying Capacity is a function of total volume. Basically a percentage of the total amount of weight a boat can carry before it sinks.

    I think this is fully true for open-cockpit small craft such as wherries, etc.; however, for closed-cockpit sea kayaks, it becomes more a question of which point on the rotational stability curve you regard as the limit. In other words, the angular separation between the "Maximum Carrying Capacity" load limit when the boat is level and the angle where the transition from resistance to tipping becomes assistance to tipping. Or, alternatively, how small a restoring torque is acceptable just before the boat eases over the top of the curve, and further tipping results in less restoring torque.

    I've paddled a very high volume boat for years, and loaded it to 450 lbs at times; it never felt marginal in primary stability, but at times the secondary stability was pretty limited!!

    Sea kayaks require a different approach to defining "Maximum Carrying Capacity." I think.
     
  14. woodensoul

    woodensoul Paddler

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    Hi Dave, Yeah that's interesting. The 50% is a rule of thumb and designers are often reluctant to give you a max capacity number because I believe of some of the points you have brought up. My point in all this is really that regardless of large volume or small volume boat the Design Displacement gives you a number at which you should get predicatable behaviour from the boat. If you severely under load or overload the boat you MAY get unpredictable results. So get a boat whose volume matches what you are going to be using it for, and be wary of Max Capacity numbers... :wink:
     
  15. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    woodensoul wrote: So get a boat whose volume matches what you are going to be using it for, and be wary of Max Capacity numbers...

    That's good advice. The quandary for folks entering the boat market is threefold:

    1. They don't know exactly what use they might make of the boat.
    2. If they shift from day tripping to long distance touring, they need a larger boat.
    3. Any boat which works well as a day boat with a given paddler in it, will perform differently with a touring load in it.

    So what to do? One solution is to pick a boat in which the "break" in the hull is a bit above the waterline light, and a bit below the waterline heavy. This gives "similar" performance heavy and light.

    That introduces a second quandary: how do you find out if that is where the waterline sits, with you in it?

    I think most of us have gone through a couple boats, searching for the best compromise.

    I don't think the manufacturer's guidelines or ratings are very helpful, most of the time, except to divide boats into small, medium, and large.
     
  16. woodensoul

    woodensoul Paddler

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    I think this sport is like most others. You buy your first boat and paddle it a while, and then you figure out what the questions are... As time goes by your skills may improve, or your job or living situation changes and you paddle in places you did not paddle before. Part of lifes rich pagentry... So you may end up with more than one boat to meet these diverse or changing needs. As long as you are using them, that's OK...
     
  17. woodensoul

    woodensoul Paddler

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    I am just re-reading this. Heh, heh, heh... I am not going here. Let me just say that I view hull design is a being bit more complex... Hard chine, soft chine,no chine, hard chine aft, volume fore and aft, heavy rocker, light rocker, rocker foreward only, high deck, low deck... Consistent degradation of performace across all these? Perhaps, but that would be a very simple hull design and maybe that is a compromise too? This is one that is best left for some beers...
     
  18. DarenN

    DarenN Paddler

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    my comprimize is to chose my boats so that they are just barely large enough to carry me and my gear. that way, it's not too much too big when i paddle empty. i.e. the Chatham 17 will hold enough gear for three or four days camping without being over-loaded, and yet still paddles great when empty. the King i'm working on now will be an expedition boat because it has the required volume for loooonnngg trips.
    DarenN......
     
  19. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Absolutely; the advice was intended to get someone in a boat that would work ... without delving into deep design. Like you say, it is all a compromise.

    I'll buy the first round if we get a chance to dis cuss this face to face. :lol: :wink: