The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manual

Discussion in 'Boat and Accessory Building' started by Steve Deligan, Oct 8, 2015.

  1. Steve Deligan

    Steve Deligan Paddler

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    Hi everyone,

    I'm busy building my fourth Pygmy kayak, a Borealis XL, and have decided to also put together a supplementary manual that I'm calling the "Rogue Manual". The idea is that it is a collection of all the great ideas the people have for building Pygmy kayak's that are not found in the official Pygmy manual. No, this supplementary manual is not sanctioned by Pygmy Boats.

    The main focus of the manual is on how to build a kayak without using wires and making hundreds of holes. It's the "strapping tape" method. I've used it on three boats now and they look great. I know that several of the people who make the boats professionally also use the strapping tape method.
    My Rogue Manual also includes other ideas that I've used or that other people have used over the years.

    If you have any tips or tricks that you'd like to see included please let me know. So far the manual is 30 pages, with over half devoted to the taping method.

    I've attached the first seven sample pages so you can see the various topics, and I'd love to get any input you may have. Read the Table of Contents for what's in the rest of the manual:








    Thanks!

    Steve
     
  2. JohnAbercrombie

    JohnAbercrombie Paddler

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    Steve-
    Are you planning to sell this manual, or distribute it at no charge?
     
  3. Steve Deligan

    Steve Deligan Paddler

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    Hi John,

    I haven't decided that yet. The default would be to sell it, but it may be nice to have a community created manual too. A manual like this would never be much of a money maker so I'm not sure it's worth the bother to go through the selling process.

    Your thoughts?

    Steve
     
  4. JohnAbercrombie

    JohnAbercrombie Paddler

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    Steve-
    It doesn't matter to me personally whether you sell the manual, but I think it would be better to inform 'contributors' to the manual about your plans, before they share their knowledge with you.

    I'm still trying to believe in the fantasy of the 'old internet' - a place where people shared information without trying to turn a dollar.

    I'm probably in the minority on this, though.

    John
     
  5. Mac50L

    Mac50L Paddler

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    Unless it is in the official instruction manual, Missing, what I class as a very important/essential item, White Vinegar. What do you use to clean off epoxy with? Acetone? Can you drink it? No? Can you drink vinegar? Yes? Any really toxic vapour from vinegar? No?

    Cleaning off epoxy, those bits you spill, off tools, off you unless you (OK, everyone else) are really careful.

    Gloves, I use one set of dishwashing gloves for a kayak and clean them with vinegar after each session. It does save landfill.

    I didn't realise you build a Pygmy kayak inverted. I might have tried that with my first but promptly stopped doing it that way. However, if it works for the Pygmy design OK.
     
  6. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    This.

    I can see some copyright issues here -- and perhaps a moral issue or two as well -- regardless of whether this 'manual' is sold or given away.
     
  7. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    Steve,

    The manual is useful, and the production values look good. Perhaps produce it as an online, malleable document, with donations welcome. Almost every person new to working with sng designs and/or epoxy work has a lot to absorb, and many in that group have no idea how little they know. Towards the middle of their build, the realization creeps in that they need advice, and that is often when we first see them here, looking for a fix for some problem or help with a hurdle.

    After a couple cycles of revision, then the word will be out and then there may be a traditional market for it, likely via electronic distribution.

    You will need to keep Pygmy at bay, because they may object to use of their trademarked name, justified or not.

    ---------

    One addendum: suggest you elaborate on the cabinet scraper. Many of us here use a carbide bladed scraper similar to this one,
    http://www.amazon.com/Bahco-650-Premium ... B0001IX7RY as well as the trad. rectangular steel scraper. Both are very useful on sng boats.
     
  8. Steve Deligan

    Steve Deligan Paddler

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    Thanks everyone,

    Yes, I see your point about contributors and for that reason will most likely make it a free, online thing, at least at first.

    Regarding copyright issues, what might be the issue? I understand that Pygmy might not want their name associated with it, especially in the title so I can easily get rid of that. However it should not be a copyright issue otherwise. It should be perfectly OK to talk about Pygmy kits and such in the same way that I could write a book about how to modify a Ford. In that case I wouldn't be breaking any copyright or trademark issues. Thoughts?

    Another idea, and I really doubt it but it may happen, is that Pygmy might actually want something like this for some of their builders. Perhaps, if edited a certain way, they may like it. Again I'm doubtful but you never know! :p

    I will work on revising the cover page today!

    Thanks,

    Steve
     
  9. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    Steve,

    Pygmy's founder is known for his aggressive stance toward what he perceives as criticism of his designs. Perhaps you have not encountered that. In contrast, I have always found the Pygmy staff most receptive to suggestions for improvement and most helpful when I ran into a snag. It could be Lockwood has mellowed since the early years (built my first sng Pygmy in 1996), but I suspect that he might react badly to the use of the word "Rogue" in association with the Borealis manual.

    Good luck with the project. I think it fills a need, though many first time builders may not recognize their need until after the resin cures and the shop dust settles placidly onto their fresh varnish! :wink: :wink:
     
  10. Steve Deligan

    Steve Deligan Paddler

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    I see your point. I started this supplemental manual because I very much like Pygmy kayaks and wish to promote their products, and so that other builders can get an idea of what they can possibly do to modify their boats. It is in no way a criticism at all!

    The use of the word "rogue" is a reference to builders who have "gone rogue" and have gone beyond the official manual. I will work on the cover page this weekend and work on some rephrasing. The last thing I want to do is upset John or anyone at Pygmy because I really do love their boats and want to continue supporting them!

    If you read through the supplemental manual that I've started you will not see any criticism of Pygmy as a company or any of their products other than to say that they could supply more consumables in their kits. Otherwise the only references to Pygmy are between the "official manual that came with your kit" and the other suggestions that are found in the supplemental manual. I have also repeatedly said that they should read the official manual, and that Pygmy Boats has not sanctioned this supplemental manual in any way. In fact the introduction starts out by saying how wonderful Pygmy kayaks are.

    It's all very positive and fun! At least I hope that's how people see it. There is no intention whatsoever of any sort of criticism. I will look at it again this weekend and see if I can make it sound even more positive than it already is.

    I look on this manual in the same way that someone out there might write a manual on "How to modify your Ford". In that case they would be very pro-Ford and would be hoping that others too would use Ford products. This manual is in the same vein. I hope many, many people buy and build Pygmy boats.
     
  11. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    Steve, in addition to John's concern, my concern is that it seems that you're gleaning information (techniques, methods, ideas, etc) from the Internet and putting it all in your manual (correct me if I'm wrong). Are you planning to contact those people and ask their permission to use their ideas and give them credit for their 'contributions'? If not, others might incorrectly think that everything you're sharing is "yours".

    Don't get me wrong, I think the manual is a good idea -- but as with most things, there are many aspects to consider carefully before going ahead.
     
  12. Steve Deligan

    Steve Deligan Paddler

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    Good question. It goes to the "chicken or egg" dilemma doesn't it? So far I have done everything that is mentioned in the manual in my boats. However, you can always ask where I got that information to do it in the first place. Some I got from Pygmy themselves. For example they had on display a boat built without wires and they told me about the taping method themselves. Others I have read about or talked to other builders about over the years and it would be impossible to document exactly where I got the information.

    Very little in the manual is exclusively mine.

    I can say this though: If you are contributing something that goes into the manual and you would like your name attached as a contributor, then I would be happy to do that. Since there will be no likelihood of money being made from this then I can't offer any sort of compensation beyond recognition.

    I can also say this... my intention was to simply offer a printed source for builders. I've had great satisfaction making Pygmy kayaks. If however it becomes too much of an issue or too much of a controversy then I'll simply delete the entire project. It's not a big deal and I haven't invested much time into it yet. I certainly don't want people to feel slighted and I don't want Pygmy to be upset. At this point I'm considering not going any further as it's just not worth the stress... Sigh... There are other issues too, for example how I would distribute this. Even if I were to make it totally "open source" I'm not sure how to distribute it and keep it as a properly updated resource. I suppose I could "finalize" it as it is, without any outside contributions since the call went out, and try to offer it online through a self-publishing site, but I'm not sure it's deep enough to charge for it.

    So... it's all on hold for now. I will have more fun simply making my boat and not worrying about this! :p
     
  13. Astoriadave

    Astoriadave Paddler

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    Steve,

    I hope you do publish it, electronically or otherwise. I believe it fills a need. As to issues with Pygmy, I believe you have covered that by dialoging with them.

    Finally, Dan's concerns over intellectual property seem overwrought a bit. I do not know the law, but unless someone else can claim damages from your publication of at bright idea they divulged to you, you are in the clear. For example, if someone had a MS in progress, you saw it or discussed it with the author, and then beat them to publication, they might be able to claim damages. It does not sound like that is the case here. Sharing of individual woodworking techniques has a long tradition in boatbuilding circles.

    I think others will be grateful, and that they will be pleased to have a resource like this for consultation while they build
     
  14. Whidbey

    Whidbey Paddler

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    Steve,

    I agree with Dave that you do indeed fill a need. Perhaps not for the first time builder, but for someone wanting to build their second or third boats and wish to use their experience to try something different.

    You are not the first to produce an alternate manual. Kayaks You Can Build by Ted Moores and Greg Rossel covers how to build a Coho from start to finish. They do thank John Lockwood in acknowledgements. Perhaps bouncing your idea off Pygmy would be a mutual benefit - they may sell a few more kits and you could sell some manuals.

    James
     
  15. Roy222

    Roy222 Paddler

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    Steve:
    I would suggest that you remove all references to Pygmy from your manual. There is nothing unique about building a Pygmy design/kit comparied to any other Stitch and Glue boat! (except maybe predrilled holes)
    You really have a builders manual for any Stitch and Glue boat that does not have predrilled holes for wire.
    Your method is not that different then a no staple strip boat build method.
    If you want to commercialize your work, then you might expand your vision to include all hand built boats and include other methods of holding panels or strips in place. The success of your book should be based on how well you can organize it's content. Your book could be as short as, "use tape instead of wire when building a plywood panel boat".

    Building a boat is just a series of small detailed processes. Intergrating your unique processes into another process system will be difficult to explain. You wil probably need to outline your complete process without any reference to anyother builders process.

    Again, get "Pygmy" out of your equation.


    Roy
     
  16. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    Re: The "Rogue Manual" - A Supplementary Pygmy Builders Manu

    I think a few clc boats use a stitchless approach on some or all of the assemblies: so maybe you could get some ideas from from obtaining some of their manuals. Then with that input you could call the new manual "The CLC Guide to building Pygmys".
    And who could object to that? heh heh.