the s&g ic surfer 'la ligne' - design development

Discussion in 'Boat and Accessory Building' started by mick_allen, Mar 24, 2008.

  1. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    In a previous post:
    http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?p=24583#24583

    I showed a schematic of a 3.5 m (11.5’) ic surf s&g kayak:

    [​IMG]


    I/ve spent some time refining the design and now ‘la ligne’ is ready to be modeled, but for interests sake here are some preliminary views:


    Same approx viewpoint as the schematic:

    [​IMG]

    Opposite side view:

    [​IMG]


    Close up frontal:
    [​IMG]


    and the basic kit of parts to be used to build the model:

    [​IMG]

    i'll eventually make the model using the exact same techniques as shown on the building the sot 'solitude':
    http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/building/thumbnails.php?album=16

    mick

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  2. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    forgot to mention that the size is 3.5m or 11.5 feet long by 24.5 inches wide.
    Plus as a stitch and glue kayak, the flat hull faces wouldn't actually comply to the old ic rules of rounded shapes.

    so in that case, one would adapt by making a reverse hybrid -
    (where the hull shape and rails would be slightly rounded with a few licks of the fairing board) and the hull (rather than the usual deck) built of strip construction and faired to achieve the slightly rounded shapes.

    mick

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  3. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    well, the important word in the heading for this thread was 'development'.

    and in order to develop or refine a design, you have suck it up and change:
    there are a bunch of things that i am not totally happy with and one of them is the bow. These kind of yaks get into collisions and can and do cause both human and material damage.

    This is the bow as i drew it originally above:
    [​IMG]

    as you can see, it somewhat comes to a point. This is unneccessary, unthoughtful and must change even though (for the way i do it) it means that every single panel has to be erased and every single curve of the boat has to be changed a tiny bit, but a bit none the less. In the first example, all the deck panels relate to the gothic arch shape of the bow, wheras in the second example, all the deckpanels have to be changed to relate to the new profile.

    so i have rounded the end while still keeping the basic shape that i want:

    [​IMG]

    i/m a little fearful as it seems as though the ply panels may have to go thru some sharp curves to pull it off, but luckily they are fairly flat here. Looking closely at the panel ends, they should make the turn fairly (not perfectly, of course) well:

    [​IMG]



    i used this modification process to change some other things that i was a little uncertain of, but there are still other issues that i am wrestling with on this guy. close to modelling, but not yet. and while mulling over this guy, there are lots of others crowding around trying to get out.




    mick



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  4. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    and just finishing cutting the forms for the model, with a few related characters looking on at what's happening:

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Mark_Schilling

    Mark_Schilling Paddler

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    Mick, you have the coolest bathtub toys ever! :lol:
     
  6. keabird

    keabird Paddler

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    FYI I just noticed that CLC has a surf kayak design they recently came up with. The one in this thread looks a lot nicer though!
     
  7. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    yah mark, i have quite a few of those now and a few others on the way also as you know.

    and thanks for the kind works kea, but this is a longer and different type of surfing kayak than the guillemot/clc matunuk. - so I have the advantage of length here to emphasize the long flowing lines of this design. i/ve had a lot of fun massaging this one, and as there is no time limit on these things, i can spend disgusting amounts of time working on the type of balance and proportions and proportion changes that i want to achieve.

    but for comparison purposes, it might be better to use more similar length yaks such as the s&g schematic version of 'sophistry':

    [​IMG]

    or one of the versions of the expressionistic yak 'surfeit':

    [​IMG]



    but it's also a natural to do some other shorter (and longer) versions of the approach taken with 'la ligne'. I have schematics and early development of a 13.5' weekend basher using the approach but softened up a bit that i call the 'reefrunner' as well as at least one along the lines of the shorter yaks shown in this post above.



    mick


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  8. kelly t

    kelly t Paddler

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    Mick,

    Very, very, cool!!
    I look forward to seeing pics of full-size versions on the water.

    kelly t
     
  9. woodensoul

    woodensoul Paddler

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    Cool Mick! You are having way to much fun! ws
     
  10. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    another step of the form ass'y on the 6"x3" (scale) spine:

    you can see the relative length of some lurkers - 'surfeit' and a 6'8" SOF playboat schematic.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    i decided to build this model with a different skin than all the others. I checked out veneers and bought a 1'x8' pc of mahogany resin backed veneer for abt $20. it's probably abt 1/25" thick (.040") and ok for handling at first. of the veneer choices, this piece had the finest grain and therefore the best scale effect.

    to make it more robust, i glassed both front and back with 6oz. I/ve got a bit of learning to do with this tech as the wetting of the initial resin layer caused waviness in the veneer that i couldn't really get out when i glassed the back and weighted it down. And also kinda unfortunately, the 6oz just did not wet out very well no matter what i did upon application ( i really laid on the heat in some areas to see if that would do anything - did not matter). old glass, laying around i guess.

    but the nice thing is that i can really spray glue down the plans and then use lots of paint thinner to remove them without damaging the epoxied veneer (whereas styrene gets soft with paint thinner unfortunately). Hopefully the finished model will look semi ok. there just might be a problem with some of the paper being glued into the cracks, but we'll see.

    I will be gluing all the panels with ca.




    [​IMG]

    Here the plans are sprayglued down - and you can see the veneer waviness on the left hand edge.


    and then i very carefully bandsaw the pieces out just near the line, then take a 100 grit fairing board and sand down to the line.

    here's an example of the end of a panel up close. sanding down to the line just gives a little leeway for more shaping, and you can see how the glassing both sides makes it very easy and safe to sand down and make fine points without danger of breakage:


    [​IMG]


    and then upon fitting in place, some last minute strokes with the edge of a small flat file (just like in full scale s&gs) helps get the panels to meet ea other somewhat better.

    [​IMG]



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  12. woodensoul

    woodensoul Paddler

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    Very cool Mick. When you had the wavyness problem were you glassing one side then letting it dry before glassing the other? This is sort of the traditional way to do it. Someting I have done when I want to glass two sides quickly is to cut a clean piece of plastic vapour barrier and glass on that. I often wet out on the plastic, put the panel on and then glass the remaining side. When dry its easy to peal off the plastic. It's easy to over resin the plastic side and the weave generaly is completely filled (pro and con). I don't know whether this would work for you, or whether you are already doing this...

    BTW, if you keep building this scale boat you are going to have to loose some weight! :wink:
     
  13. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    that’s not the only reason, sheesh!

    anyway, I did just wet one side at a time but I think the problem was the thin veneer being sealed on one side (comes that way) and wetted on the other caused differential dimensional changes in the veneer. I did not use weights on the 1st layup as i didn’t want to marr this good side. And then for the back side, I did use wts (and 2 layers of vapour barrier) but it was too late and only helped marginally – I also used a good amount of resin on this backside to fill the weave in one step which was also a mistake as it cured very very wrinkly b/c of the excess resin and I had a bit of scraping and sanding to get to a semi acceptable surface, heh heh.

    the other aspect that I found fascinating was that the 2 layers of 6 oz glass on each side of this microscopically thin pc of veneer makes it way stiffer than the thicker (.06”) styrene that I am used to using on these models. This model will be able to be thrown across the room and survive with only a few scrapes!! The downside for this application is that the more bent panels don’t move or form in the way that the full scale 1/8”(3mm) ply would move – almost like what ¼” (6mm) ply would be.

    So the next time I build a model with this type of veneer, I think I’ll just lightly preseal it one side (as the other side is already ‘sealed’ with the resin binder) without the awkwardness of glassing, put on the vapour barrier plastic and weight it down (or if I had a vacuum setup – just use that on the table with full glass), and hopefully that will set up with just a little less waviness.

    after curing , then glass the top (w/ weights), then the back – with just enough resin. And I would use thinner glass, say 4oz ea side or 4 oz and 2 oz (whatever cheapish).

    After all the above, the model will be a lot cruder than I hoped it will be, but it will have been interesting and educational none the less.
     
  14. woodensoul

    woodensoul Paddler

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    I just got some 1 oz cloth which I used for the Kevlar wrap. It was really not bad to work with, so it might be an option for you as well. Pressing the whole works between two sheets of plastic might work, but dealing with one sealed surface is a pain in the butt, and as you pointed out its easy to get the wrinkles in the finish...

    Looking forward to the next pics!
     
  15. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    the glassed panels are so stiff, that i was having a little trouble at the bow, and i forgot to thin out the back glass to make the ends more flexible. i finally clued in on the last large panel pair, duh:

    [​IMG]


    to glue the panel i first glue the bow end:
    [​IMG]

    then the stern end:
    [​IMG]

    and then the floating panel:

    [​IMG]

    is taped to its correct position with masking tape - and then ca glued on the outside betw the masking tape and on the inside where accessible. (gluing it on the outside like this will adhere the paper plans very well to the wood veneer at the edges, so there will be some cleanup time down the line, unfortunately):

    [​IMG]

    you can see how stiff the panel is when just the end is glued:

    [​IMG]

    this rear view shows how the panel lines drawn on the forms allow continuous checking that everything is going together well:
    [​IMG]
    with all the stern panels assembled in place, i am pleased at how the balance and proportioning of the lines is working out. tho' simple in appearance, this sort of thing takes countless design hours to refine and refine:
    [​IMG]
    and then finally the cockpit is glued in place:
    [​IMG]

    and here is 'la ligne' finally all glued together:
    [​IMG]

    and then get out the paint thinner to release the well glued plans from the glassed veneer. this will take a while and will take some touching up. remember this model will be a rough model as quite a few areas of the glass would not become totally transparent - but it will be fine for my purposes.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. jurgenk

    jurgenk Paddler

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    Very cool Mick... it is fascinating to see the analytical as well as building process and I am looking forward to seeing the finished product.

    Brad
     
  17. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    Here are some photos of the completed veneer model.

    front 3/4 view
    [​IMG]
    rear view
    [​IMG]
    front/side
    [​IMG]
    side
    [​IMG]



    this has turned out to be a very, very, stiff and strong construction method - way more robust than the other styrene models (and they are not too fragile either).

    If the glassing had worked out better, this would result in a fairly pleasing looking model, but for my purposes it is harder to make visible marks on for note retention. But the model has come in very handy as i can see things already that i want to change. There's nothing quite like having a 1/4 full size model to turn over and over in your hands as you carefully check out this and that.

    mick

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  18. greg0rn

    greg0rn Paddler

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    Mick, this is beautiful! When you finish with it and get sick and tired of looking, do not chuck it overboard. I'll offload it from you for a permanent display in my cottage, together with other boats. We could also treat it as a temporary storage, in case you want it back.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    thanks for your kind words, greg!
    your cottage looks cool, too!

    .
     
  20. Mark_Schilling

    Mark_Schilling Paddler

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    I think I'm about 1/3 the size of Mick :shock: so if he'd only build these things in 1:3 scale instead of 1:4 scale, he may find himself with another source of income! :lol: