"They're back so let's kill them"

Discussion in 'General Paddling Discussions' started by Dan_Millsip, May 20, 2009.

  1. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    While reading through the Vancouver Sun this morning and saw on the front page, this story about First Nations plans to kill up to 200 sea otters for "ceremonial reasons":

    http://www.vancouversun.com/Technology/ ... story.html

    Seems to me that a species that was recently on the brink of extinction should not be killed for such purposes (not that being nearly extinct has much to do with this, but it just seems to make it worse in my view). It's the year 2009 -- time for people to live in the now regardless of their cultural background.

    Anyone else feel the same way that I do?

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  2. Tootsall

    Tootsall Paddler

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    Ditto. Time for mankind to move forward together rather than resorting to yester-year's tired arguments (cultural or otherwise).
     
  3. Redcedar

    Redcedar Paddler

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    Some of the Kyuquot people have been killing otters for the last several years now , heard it directly from a very reliable source who lives there . Most of the locals do not have a problem with it . I just hope it doesn't lead to a black market in sea otter pelts aka soft gold. Sea otters are continuing to spread and are doing quite well for now ... one oil tanker breaking open could wipe out many or most of them I would guess.

    Sea otters eat a lot of sea urchins which if uncontrolled lead to an urchin desert without kelp and kelp acts like a nursery for little fishes .

    Personally I would like sea otters to be left alone but if I lived at Kyuquot and ate shellfish then things could be different. As one who lives in rural BC resource issues are not always as black and white as a brief news story told by a city person using selective parts of the whole story.
     
  4. ken_vandeburgt

    ken_vandeburgt Paddler

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    I could rant for days. Just for ceremonial reasons of course.

    Do sea otter pelts still fetch as high a price as they once did?
     
  5. Islandboy

    Islandboy Paddler

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    Absolutely!! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

    Was that my outside voice? :oops:
     
  6. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    I don't have a problem with controlling populations to keep eco systems in balance -- but the article states "Aboriginals on the west coast of Vancouver Island are planning to kill one per cent of sea otters per year for ceremonial reasons."

    Further to this:

    I do have a problem when animals (especially animals that are recovering from near extinction) are being killed just because someone wants a new ceremonial costume.

    Times have changed -- there are lots of things that were done in the past that make no sense to do today. This certainly qualifies.

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  7. Redcedar

    Redcedar Paddler

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    Dan - Yes I agree .

    I was told by my source at Kyuquot that this is entirely a food issue and a modern one .

    I suspect the word "ceremonial" helps to justify the kill. I doubt any are being killed by bow and arrow from a paddle powered dugout canoe !
     
  8. Ken B

    Ken B Paddler

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    We're talking one percent of the population...right?
    For ceremonial reasons...right?
    So what!
    I was there last year...one can't swing a dead crab without hitting an otter...they're everywhere!

    Besides...the First Nations control the area (as per last year's treaty signing)...not to mention have been occupying the area in question for many MANY generations before the White Man ever showed up...who are we to tell them what they can and cannot do?
     
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  9. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    They no longer live in the world that they once did. They should be abiding by the modern ways of the modern world -- that doesn't include killing wild animals because someone wants a new costume. Do you seriously think that any other group of people in our society would be excused for doing the same thing? I get a bit tired of these double standards.

    If I said that I agreed with this practice, would you argue still, Ken? I sense that you would.

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  10. rider

    rider Paddler

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    I've read that story today and it ticked me too.
    The only way I can see that people should be entitled to this sort of 'living in traditional ways' is if they ACTUALLY go back to the traditional ways, ie: give up their powerboats, gas powered chainsaws, electricity, modern medicine. Thinking they deserve both the benefits of todays technology, and killing animals as 'in the old ways' is hippocricy of the highest order.
     
  11. Ken B

    Ken B Paddler

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    You know, sometimes I get tired of 'Urbanites' who think they know what's best outside their fishbowl!

    Did the First Nations, or did they not harvest sea otters in their past?
    Do First Nation's have the right to pick up old traditions?

    And again...we are talking about 1% per year...
    In this case you say No...I say Yes.
    We agree to disagree.
     
  12. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    You're way out of line with this statement. You have no idea of the places that I've lived (and yes, I've lived in some very remote places).

    Sure, so long as it doesn't clash with the rest of the current modern world that they live in. Read riders post for some insight. Maybe they should go back to visciously attacking and killing anyone who enters their territories which was commonplace by many tribes not that long ago (late 1800's) -- would that be OK with you too?

    One country, one set of rules. For everyone.

    Actually, I don't agree with you at all.

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  13. rider

    rider Paddler

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    Same can be said about rednecks.
     
  14. Kermode

    Kermode Paddler

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    Hear! Hear! Rider... Very well put. Lots of "double standards" where certain sections of the community are concerned. Fact is the majority probably couldn't do it anymore without the modern tools, transport, etc. That's how traditional it all is! :roll:
    Many will remember the Bald Eagle slaughter not too long ago, that was supposedly all "ceremonial" too! But it wasn't was it?
     
  15. Islandboy

    Islandboy Paddler

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    Am I going to have to remind you that the Supreme court of BC has declared that Pitlamping Elk with a magnum rifle, out of a chevy, using high wattage floodlights is merely a natural progression from torches and spears. :shock: No unlawful double standard on what is being proposed. :?

    "Society is not held together by moral standards, merely by a narrow band of laws that can be enforced." Heard that somewhere. :cool
     
  16. lance_randy

    lance_randy Paddler

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    This is a tricky issue. I was in complete agreement with Millsip, until I read what Ken B had to say, and thought about it for awhile.

    Nobody wants to see Sea Otters killed by a special interest group, and yet, who would begrudge a people an opportunity to reconnect with their heritage? Especially when so much of that heritage has been taken away.

    As whether this whole thing is a good idea or not, the devil is always in the details.

    If indeed this hunt is sustainable, and Sea Otter populations are able to continue to flourish, then perhaps there is no cause for alarm.

    If hunting a few otters is what it takes to get the community involved, if the kids are at the center of the whole thing, and if it gives them some pride, and a deeper connection to their history and culture, then I'm all for it.
    If however, this whole thing is really just a scam to make a few bucks, or for some chief to feel like a big shot, then obviously I'm against it.

    At the end of the day though, if in fact this hunt does not hurt the population, then it is more of an aesthetic, and not a real issue. If the First Nations announced they were going to resume sustainably harvesting some species of Sea Cucumber, would anybody care?

    If this hunt is sustainable, and the First Nations are not threatening the (admittedly, what seems tiny to me) population of Sea Otters, is it really any of my business what they are doing it for? It's their land, and as long as no laws are being broken, their damned business.
    :twisted:
     
  17. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

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    Many of us eat meat from wild animals here. And strongly advocate it in some circumstances (wild salmon for example).

    If hunting does not destroy the ecology of the animals or it's environment( sustainable), I don't see hunting of any animal by any responsible person in any acceptable hunting manner being a problem other than bad optics.
     
  18. Islandboy

    Islandboy Paddler

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    There is recorded proof of Caucasoid skeletal remains on the west coast of NA that predate "first nations" (contested of course). Using the "first nation approach", the question then becomes whose land is it. What if Joe's DNA is a match. Does the land belong to him? How do you sort the overlaps? Traditional methods ? Technologically enhanced TM's?

    I think we are all immigrants.
     
  19. inpayne

    inpayne Paddler

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    Congratulations upon your preposterous red herring. A couple of natives were bad so all are? Though, whatever floats your boat if you wish to conflate the OP's issue of permissible hunting to that of illegal kills. Same laws applied with those actions as it was as illegal for a First Nations status holder to kill the eagles as it would be for a white man. Kermode, your bald eagle incident was that of poaching by a couple of individuals for the purpose of trafficking in illegal animal parts within this country and into the USA, and -- to further nullify your argument-- actions that were both unsanctioned and condemned by the First Nations governments. Though, if you wish, go forth and continue to provocatively paint an entire population under the same slanderous banner out of some irrational and prejudicial bias.

    I am in agreement with Lance and Mick's above posts. If the local council obtains permission for a manageable hunt then by all means it is within responsible rights. That is what's in question here. The specific topic is not an issue of poaching (as per Kermode's bald eagles and a Kyuquot minority making unsanctioned kills of sea otters out of ill-informed sea harvesting greed) and illegally reckless and unsustainable hunting.

    The council appears to be reasonably following the appropriate channels before such a kill is made. Rational arguments for and against will no doubt be heard. Bias against aboriginal people being wholesale poachers and the First Nations in question not warranting/deserving/possessing legislated constitutional and other unique legal rights are not sound arguments. The control of land in this country from the original (those before British and then Canadian governance) inhabitants was and will never be an absolute winner take and subjugate all. There must remain a matter of mutual respect and tolerance of differences and the entitlement to culture and a portion of scarce resources within the limited territories that the First Nations are legally recognised to retain.
     
  20. inpayne

    inpayne Paddler

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    It's extremely simple. Recognition and negotiations with the established First Nations that were present upon the establishment of British rule in these territories. Much of that has already been accomplished first via Britain and some First Nations and then later for much of the remainder with the government of Canada.

    So? In no way does such racial profiling minimise the rights of the presently distinct First Nations.

    Now, I request you to strongly consider the Ainu who have been commonly classified as "Caucasoid". In your argumentative spin, does that support weight for Europeans to have equal ancestoral claims to parts of Northern Japan? The Sami people in Russia and Finland? Everyone present are equally all immigrants and all that silly stuff... In face of relatively recent Japanese colonisation and control, the aboriginal Ainu minority on Hokkaido certainly share many of the similar challenges faced by Canada's First Nations. Sadly with unconscious (or more sadly -- conscious) goals of societal homogenisation, those in power may strive to subjugate and conquer the minority into their own comfortable image.