"They're back so let's kill them"

Discussion in 'General Paddling Discussions' started by Dan_Millsip, May 20, 2009.

  1. Doug_Lloyd

    Doug_Lloyd Paddler

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    Can anything the DFO drafts ever have any merit or environmental jurisprudence. I happen to think not. Just an observation.

    Can the feds ever do anything right in Canada?

    Interesting times up north too:

    [​IMG]

    Seals are cute. PETA takes advantage of that.

    West Coast Sea Otters? Cute too. And endangered. I know I'll be a whole lot less cooperative seeking visiting permision on these west coast shores if this culling goes through (sub text - less respect). I can see things getting nasty. Robins eloquence will elude me at that point.

    My footprint on the west coast is certainly oft hypocritically allayed, but come on, whale terminations off Flatery; Luna's propeller death; a rebounding population assailed for pelts. In your face those who support all this. Don't cross my path out there on the water please.

    Doug L
     
  2. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    No it's doesn't. But no one is doing those things in this discussion either, so there's no point in waving a finger in that direction.

    Robin, I see what you're saying, and I agree that the government has obligations to fulfull from past treaties and from treaties yet to be ratified. However, and it's a big however, there are basic laws which dictate the level of "civilization" that we, as a nation will adhere to. It's when those lines become vague, and rather senseless in a modern world, and apply to one and not another, that I take exception and ask the same question that Rider alludes to -- when is enough, enough? The laws seem to be made up along the way -- to suit whatever is the cause of the day.

    And tell me Robin, what's wrong about one set of laws for all? Why should anyone in our society have special considerations beyond that of another? Without it, there will never be equality for all mankind. I realize that in this case there are mitigating circumstances, but aside from that, what's wrong with one set of laws for all to abide by. It sure puts everyone on a level playing field, does it not?

    I could really, really get into a good discussion about this as I have some political and ethical observations and opinions but the truth of the matter is that the dealings with First Nations have been going on for a century now and I have no way of knowing all of what has transpired along the way -- knowing our politicians, probably not a lot of good. I hear lots of things, some I believe, some I don't. But I do know that it's not necessary at this point in time to kill any sea otters -- certainly not for any of the reasons that have so far been publically stated.

    Speaking of publicity -- there was a half page of letters to the editor in the Sun newspaper a couple of days ago regarding the proposed otter killings -- I'm sure you can guess what the overwhelming consensus is of people who have responded to the original and subsequent articles.


    Perhaps not dominating, but mostly ignored by several in this discussion who wish to introduce discussion of other aspects of this situation. I agree -- let's keep the discussion a bit more focused on the specific topic which is sea otters.

    And before anyone again calls someone a racist (when he definitely is not) please take a little further look at the words that were written, and the context in which they were written. Racism is a pretty powerful word, one which has a very, very fuzzy border of tolerance -- I'd be a little more careful with how I bandied that one around. In fact, it's probably a word that has absolutely no reason to be used by anyone in this discussion.

    Thanks.

    *****
     
  3. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    You ought to do a little reading of the history of the sea otter along our coastline before making such statements (hint: you're wrong, well... you're partially right, but you're mostly wrong).

    *****
     
  4. inpayne

    inpayne Paddler

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    There are universal fundamentals for all Canadians as per the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. For many circumstances there is no single ruling legislature for the country. There are multiple levels of jurisdictions with distinct boundaries.

    Reasoning? Well the provincial and aboriginal divisions are derived from the history of separate governance. Even separation of distinct and local legislation to the municipal levels. Yet, the underlying necessity for varying rule comes down to regional distinctions. We do not have a homogeneous state of absolutely shared interests and sentiments, nor would I want this country to be as that. Differences ought to be recognised, tolerated, and shared.

    There is no application of all laws for all nor should there be. That's an advocation for subjugation and insurgent division.

    Dan, on the reviled side note, the issue of race and prejudicial hierarchy (bigotry) between populations, that was introduced by skiffrace's attempt of allegory with Europeans and aboriginals to characters in Jonathon Swift's Gulliver's Travels. The prose concerned a ship of "Humans" ("bright and hardworking") arriving to a land of non or sub-humans who admire and ought to aspire to be "Human," yet are further devolved by their subsect of "Yahoos." Such talk may be carried through to the actions or inactions of an individual aboriginal to a nation being representative to all that may be labeled as them. It does a disservice to simplify and characterise issues into one population versus another.
     
  5. Mark_Schilling

    Mark_Schilling Paddler

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    How does one pronouce the 7 in that?
     
  6. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    That's your opinion. Mine differs.

    Hmmm... well, insurgence would be breaking the law too, wouldn't it? I disagree on this point as well. But then you knew from my answer above, that necessity dictates that I do.

    I really don't care who brought it up, let's just keep the word "racism" and other such words out of this. As I said, it's a very fuzzy border of tolerance and you're not winning me over with your "them" statement. I'm also a "them" (we're all "thems") but I don't cry about it nor do I think it makes me anything special.

    *****
     
  7. Comoxpaddler

    Comoxpaddler Paddler

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    Just for the record and because I think it should be noted:

    Robin - I greatly admire your eloquence and the clarity of your postings. I actually agree with you, too, but eloquence and clarity are valuable and attractive of themselves.
     
  8. lance_randy

    lance_randy Paddler

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    Wow, and I thought this thread was finally going to die... I could rant and rip for days about some of what has been said in here, but now I don't have to (thank god) because Robin has done the job. Very eloquently too, as was pointed out.

    I for one, and I hope I'm not the only one, appreciate the history lesson.
     
  9. Stumpy

    Stumpy Paddler

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    There are only 10 laws, and they apply to all people, everywhere, all the time. All the crap filling the law books in all of the law libraries throughout the world, do absolutely nothing but mitigate those ten laws, usually to aid someone who wants to find a way around those laws.
     
  10. skiffrace

    skiffrace Paddler

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    The key point of that story was change or fade into insignificance
    It seems readers here got it, except for one person.
    When one runs out of substantive arguments, words like "racist{antisemitic,bigot,stupid...}" start to fly.
    Or is it some kind of twisted Freudian Slip?
     
  11. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    Note I said natural resources. I was also referring to salmon, cedar trees, sea lions, etc. I don't consider this sea otter problem to be just about sea otters. I highly suspect that the First Nations people would appreciate it if we left alive sufficient national resources so they could make a living from their territories.
     
  12. Johan

    Johan Paddler

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    As a newcomer, I won't pretend to possess enough knowledge and appreciation of the history of this country and it's First Nations to throw myself into this debate.

    So I'll keep it short 'n sweet: LEAVE THE OTTERS ALONE!

    I doubt the sea otters really care whether they are being killed by Natives, Europeans or Canadians. After nearly being hunted to extinction by PEOPLE, ALL OF US should be focused on protecting them. Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    You'll probably think this standpoint is overly simplistic and write rather eloquent rebuttals, but for me this entire discussion boils down to the innate inability of HUMANS to learn from past mistakes. Dan nailed it on the head by naming this topic: "They're back so let's kill them"!

    Elsa takes the Grand Prize for best quote (it's bumpersticker material :D):
    "I would rather paddle with too many otters, than with too many people."

    Now can we all go out and paddle? The sun is shining...
     
  13. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Well, this discussion is about sea otters. It has nothing to do with other resources.

    *****
     
  14. Ken B

    Ken B Paddler

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    I wasn't going to comment on this...I thought Dan would say something...but alas...

    Those are strong words Doug...the fact that you included 'please' doesn't make them any less threatening.
    I'm thinking you may have wrote that in the heat of the moment.

    There is nothing wrong with a difference of opinion/beliefs...is there?

    I would like to think, though some of us have a difference of opinion's outside the sport, we all share something in common...a passion for paddling and exploring...for camping and meeting other paddlers...to talk 'Shop' and share experiences...to gain knowledge and skill in the sport.

    For the record...when it comes to these topics...though I may have a difference of opinion with some here...what I say here stays here, what I read here stays here. It won't effect my approach face to face.

    Of course, if you really do mean what you said...will I need a boat repair kit if I cross your path on the water?... :wink:
     
  15. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    You're joking, right?
    If you are serious, then you are only considering one small aspect of a complex situation. Try telling the First Nations people that it is okay for whites to kill 99% of the salmon & clearcut 99% of the forests, but they can't shoot 1% of the sea otters ... and see if they have any respect for your opinion. I don't.
     
  16. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    :roll:

    The focus of this discussion is about otters and not salmon or trees or oil. Don't make it into something that it is not.

    *****
     
  17. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    Censorship and threats of violence.
    How civilised.
     
  18. Dan_Millsip

    Dan_Millsip Paddler & Admin

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    Good grief.

    *****
     
  19. sushiy

    sushiy Paddler

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    Sorry, but I have been thinking this statement applys to all kind of species which was recently on the brink of extinction, like wild salmon and natural habitat for wildlife ( A.K.A. forest and streams and such) for example.

    I am not favor of hunting of otters, but if that is THAT important to them, all I ask is "Please make it minimum kill." I wish they switch the prey to something more abandant and pesky one ( like, raccoon?), but they might have some good caltual reason for otter.

    It would be interesting to see how the poll goes on this issue.

    I am swinging around every turn of the page :?
     
  20. Doug_Lloyd

    Doug_Lloyd Paddler

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    Ken,
    I think you read it wrongly - which is my bad for not editing before I hit send (which happens to me in the "heat of the moment" I admit). My mental imagery at the time of posting was me paddling in a direction of travel (a metaphor for my mind being made up on this subject) and so not subject to wavering or subject to change of direction from the opinions expressed here. Should you cross my path "out on the water" I ain't changing direction so you are going to "suffer a collision". Yes, bring that boat repair kit.

    I said something else about violence in my post. For peat’s sake, I meant there might be some confrontation on this issue out there, what with someone shooting a defenseless otter in the face while it floats on its back supposedly eating excessive urchin stock (the urchine/kelp/otter equation isn't in full natural prolifiration right now). I didn't mean me and Westcoastpaddlers getting violent! Nootka, whose not from Nootka but talks a lot about Nootka thought I was totally uncivilized I think. But I can see why when rereading my post. And that isn't an attempt at propogandic minimalization.

    Have a good day Ken. In actuality, you are probably one of the few paddlers from Paddlewise or Westcoastpaddler I'd even consider paddling with anymore. Mostly paddle by my self these days, with the otters and whales. Just the way I like it. I've lost all patience with just about everyone. I blow up at my work mates, my church friends...I don't know how AstoriaDave keeps so graceful in his greybeard days. Anyway, I'm sure many feel the same way about me in terms of not wanting to go for a paddle.

    Doug L (who works 13 to 14 hours every day and usually Saturdays and needs a paddling holiday asap (okay Dan?). :lol: