"They're back so let's kill them"

Discussion in 'General Paddling Discussions' started by Dan_Millsip, May 20, 2009.

  1. andreas

    andreas Paddler

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    Ok, guys can we close this topic? It feels like I'm watching a ping pong game :lol:
     
  2. Doug_Lloyd

    Doug_Lloyd Paddler

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    Run out of popcorn? :lol:

    Doug L
     
  3. DarenN

    DarenN Paddler

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    i got lots!
    :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
     
  4. ken_vandeburgt

    ken_vandeburgt Paddler

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    Who am I?

    Someone who was born naked on this planet too.
     
  5. ken_vandeburgt

    ken_vandeburgt Paddler

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    Original sovereignty doesn't count for much. Just ask the people of Carthage. Migration is a fact throughout the history of mankind. Who knows who the aboriginal peoples displaced?

    Or lets argue this the other way and give it back. Aboriginal chiefs with sovereignty over land and people running the government instead of the Queen. How long do you think the province would continue to function for the benefit of all the people who live here? (Yeah, I know; consider Campbell, Clarke, Van der Zalm, et alia and how could they do worse, but I digress)

    The first European power to lay claim to these lands was Spain. Russia too had a stake and was less than vigorous in its claims only because it feared war with Spain. United States tried too and was partially successful. See Treaty of Tordesillas, Nootka Treaty, Oregon Treaty, Treaty of Saint Petersburg. This is all before Canada was even created. So it wasn't exactly a case where there were aboriginal sovereign nations and then there was Britian.
     
  6. Islandboy

    Islandboy Paddler

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    Tell that to congress/parliament. Pa used to say, "there is one golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules." Sort of in line with the idea our society is held together by enforceable laws (not moral judgment), So he who can enforce (gold), will. Otters have no gold.
     
  7. Comoxpaddler

    Comoxpaddler Paddler

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    Ken V wrote:
    "Original sovereignty doesn't count for much. Just ask the people of Carthage. Migration is a fact throughout the history of mankind. Who knows who the aboriginal peoples displaced?"

    You have missed the point. The laws of this land run unbroken from the 18th century. The First Nations were treated illegally (because the British laws in operation at the time were ignored and aboriginal title was not extinguished legally) then and so have still been treated illegally. If the Argentinians had invaded since then and imposed (legally) Argentinian law, you might have a point. But because the Canadians are the direct inheritants of the Brits who acted illegally, you don't. Sorry. Nothing to do with Carthage, Rome, the Hittites, Babylonians, Goths, Visigoths, Huns, etc, etc.
     
  8. jurgenk

    jurgenk Paddler

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    Fascinating discussion and one that has certainly expanded my simplistic knowledge of the subjects. I lived in Lax kw'alaams for eighteen months when I first started nursing a few years ago and I saw firsthand a band trying to reconnect with its past. I used to wonder (and still do at times) what was the point of continuing to attempt to teach their old language to children as it was becoming a "dead" one as English is the dominant language of the majority. I feel though, that I am part of an amorphous "white" blob that has no culture and I miss having a tie to my past.

    I have enjoyed the points and counterpoints presented here and find myself as others have mentioned going back and forth on the subject. The reason I quoted you Doug is that I feel for you and I know what it feels like to lose patience with those you care about and I hope that you get out paddling soon... :D

    Brad
     
  9. lance_randy

    lance_randy Paddler

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    Ha! I've never heard that version of the golden rule, aint it the truth though.

    I'm curious Stumpy, what are these 10 immutable laws you speak of?

    Me, I'm kinda partial to the Kite Runner approach, which states that there is really only ONE real crime; theft. Every other law is really just a variation on this. Kill somebody, you steal their life, lie about something in a contract, you steal the truth from the person you are trying to scam, drive in front of me at 30km downtown Victoria, again, the stealing of life...etc.
     
  10. Jurfie

    Jurfie Paddler

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    I'm fairly certain he is referring to the 10 Commandments.
     
  11. ken_vandeburgt

    ken_vandeburgt Paddler

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    I would suggest there is a difference between the concept of original sovereignty and settlement of treaties based on aboriginal titles as per the Royal Proclaimation 7 October 1763 (mentioned in the charter 1982).

    In my view that means treaties resolved so that there is a one time deal involving land, money, and equal oppourtunity to pursue a living. That is how the Douglas treaties were resolved until BC ran out of funds (Not ignored). This idea of a separate level of govenment over and above that of regional district or municipality, sovereignty claims overshadowing the entire province, and separate laws allowing for hunting sea otters and other species at risk for ceremonial reasons is absurd.

    I mainly liked the Maa Nulth treaty except where it included lands that are highly valued by the public (which includes aboriginal peoples) for providing access to the sea. That part has me really cranked. I will note the Maa Nulth treaty, which covers the lands around Checkleset and Kyuquot makes no provision for hunting sea otter.
     
  12. Doug_Lloyd

    Doug_Lloyd Paddler

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    http://www.yuquot.ca/cultureAugustMurphy.html

    Brad,
    It has been a fascinating discussion thus far – and all through what one might perceive as redneck comments (I discounted the “eagle” example as honest ignorance myself)l right through to Inpayne’s co-mingled elaborate elegance, I don’t recall any unconscionable insensitivity to FN peoples – just mostly a lot of concern for the rebounding otter population with deference to aboriginal concerns. Even my comment that I’d be in a mind to not respect FN protocol to check in before paddling through a particular area was more frustration that future fact.

    As for a “amorphous “white” blob’ – that kinda sounds like something along the lines of “societal homogenization” spoken of earlier. Truly, I’ll never feel your pain. How could I? How could any of us? I can attempt to understand it intellectually. And I should be able to fathom it to the extent that a mere purview of recent history, let alone the extent of any retrograde view of generational wrongs, suggests a loss of a rich cultural identity and once prideful peoples that is even a greater loss for us all than we realize.

    I did a trip down the outside of VI a few decades back now when the outside was an infrequent destination by paddlers. Passing South Brooks and ending up passing the outside of Nootka, I had an overwhelming sense of wonder toward the Sea Otter, the People of the Sea Otter as well as the Killer Whale and the Nootka whale hunters of old (Mowachat). My first ever stop at the church at Yuquot (Friendly Cove) was a solemn experience. I walked back down to the kayak and sobbed bitterly to my Creator. As a then gung-ho Evangelical Christian, I was overwhelmed at how badly the missionaries of yesteryear had treated the culture of this coast.

    I left the beach that gale-hounded day, pulling on my paddle as the sun set over my right shoulder and seas simmered, realizing in my heart that the full extent of richness of the peoples the tides of time had swept clean would never return. I could only pray that the vast wonder embodied by the killer whale and the sea otter – wonders of creation that surely drew the former full landlords of that culture to the sea, as they did with this modern Caucasian man, would not diminish. With pained patience I pray this for my children and even for the children of the other culture that I am not of.

    With respect,

    Doug L
     
  13. Ken B

    Ken B Paddler

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    No worries Doug...I understand where you were coming from now. :idea:

    But honestly, you gotta do something about the 13-14 hour work days...6 days a week!...that will drive even the strongest person a little squirrelly.:wink:

    I look forward to paddling and swapping kayak stories with you somewhere down the road. :)
     
  14. Doug_Lloyd

    Doug_Lloyd Paddler

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    Thanks Ken.

    Yeah, I'm jealous of those paddlers that get out a lot on the water paddling their fingers to the bone rather than working their fingers to the bone. I've gotta change man. Called in sick Friday night and then had a fainting spell Saturday at work on overtime and left - and couldn't make it home on my bike. Fried today. I'm wooried. No paddling for now. I think it has all caught up with me finally.

    BTW, my recent post to Brad was bereft of the fact that since my encounter with all 'dem emotions at Friendly Cove all those years back, the sea otter population has indeed made a good recovery, not too mention FN culture has undergone some resurgance. The killer whale population hasn't done so well. And I still struggle a bit with the ideals of my faith versus reality. I certainly find when I do get out paddling these days all of life's questions and struggles melt away by the second day out. Can't pay for therapy like that. :D

    Doug L
     
  15. jurgenk

    jurgenk Paddler

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    I hear you so well Doug in that I have been away from the water for a while (too busy, yada, yada, yada...) and I look forward to once again having my troubles melt away with the dip of the paddle.
     
  16. ken_vandeburgt

    ken_vandeburgt Paddler

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  17. Ken B

    Ken B Paddler

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    Very interesting Ken V...but not relevant!
    We are not talking about B.C.'s First Nation's wanting to sell Sea Otter Souvenirs!
    Face it Ken, what is going on up in Alaska (otter fur souvenirs) would NEVER happen here.
    Alaska is a huge Cruise Ship destination for travellers...who I'm sure are the majority of the purchasers of those goods...I fail to see a connection here.

    However...what your example does provide is the appearance that Alaska is striving to get their Sea Otter situation under control.

    From your link's...
    First:
    'Neither subsistence nor the creation and sale of handicrafts has been listed as threats to this listed population, and do not negatively affect efforts to recover the population.'
    Second:
    'The Final Rule to list the Southwest Alaska Distinct Population Segment of sea otters as threatened under the Endangered Species Act (ESA) became effective September 8, 2005...
    ...No critical habitat has been defined at this time, however it is expected that critical habitat will be proposed by the end of 2008.'


    a). It looks like Alaska has a management/monitoring system already in place.
    b). It also looks like that system was due to be updated/reviewed at the end of last year, after what looks to have been a trial period.
    MOST IMPORTANT...
    c). The end result appears to be seeking a Balance between the success of the species, and the wants/needs/rights of First Nation's.

    The operative word here being 'Balance'...
     
  18. Doug_Lloyd

    Doug_Lloyd Paddler

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    Ken mentioned the operative word being 'Balance'...

    What about the balance of nature?

    This planet and life on it and life in it are under some pretty severe pressure right now. Like, there's the planet, then there's the biodiversity...and then there is mankind it seems of which all cultures and races and political leanings fall. While not wanting to "homogenize" all mankind, "mankind" by default means everyone human. Mankind better smarten up fast.

    Marine mammals are under tremendous pressure with rising sea temps, pollution (individual mankind is still flushing kitty litter and cat poop down the craper, for goodness sake) - and a lot more than just the crap some of us write in cyberspace some days. I think Astoriadave said it best - time for (even) the FN's to "grow up".

    Ideal scenario: FN principals are given the right to cull sea otters for ceremonial purposes after DFO finishes study. Mature FN elders decide to voluntarily forgo hunt. All mankind gets on with the custodial job of saving this planet and taking care of it and the life on it.

    I gave a short sermon at a church camp recently called "My God is Green." (Okay, so I was looked at askance, but I can try...). Going green means changing. Maybe we can never have the past back. Life was so plentiful back then we could kill anything with abandon and expand our villages. Now, isn't that partially how we got here.

    I have a simple mind I admit. But certain words sink in and make me blush as a human being: "They're back so let's kill them". Righteous words from a westcoast priest if you ask me.

    Doug L
     
  19. Matt

    Matt Paddler

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    I guess my suggestion would be, for those of you who do not understand why tribes are working to return to traditional practice, go meet with them. Put yourself in their shoes. Work on empathy, and my guess is we'll all get along a lot better.