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torso rotation

drahcir

Paddler
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Messages
689
Location
North Idaho (Sandpoint)
My forward stroke has evolved since I began paddling. Even when I am not paying close attention, I use torso rotation to drive the paddle and also push with my top arm. One key to torso rotation is to lock your elbows during the power phase of the stroke – the elbows need not be straight but should be locked. The idea is to use your larger and stronger abdominal muscles (or whatever they are called) rather than your smaller arm muscles. Is it more involved than this?

We may watch amateur paddlers and classify them as ‘arm paddlers’ or ‘torso rotators’. The unlocked elbow characterizes the ‘arm paddlers’ when we watch them. But is this an oversimplification? If I were a racer, particularly a sprinter, I would want something extra. Why not use torso rotation plus arm muscles – instead of just torso rotation, get both muscle groups working. Is that, in fact, what we may be seeing in some racers? Do we look at them and just see some doing ‘arm paddling’ or are they also rotating the torso?
 
On the very first multi-day kayak trip I took (back in the mid 80's, on Lake Huron) the guide told us to "show our chest to the shore every stroke". She was a competitive paddler and nordic skier and her words stuck with me. I pass them on when I see beginners using their arms excessively.
 
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Imagine the chain of muscles from your footpeg to your paddle, adding your relative weak arm muscles to the chain would be the weakest link in the chain. It would also encourage too long of a stroke, pulling the hull down in the water and increasing yaw.

In a surfski or sprint kayak my legs provide maybe 85% of the drive, rotating in the seat to provide the rotation. In most seakayaks that isn't really possible, so that number goes down to 60% or so. (All numbers non-scientific subjective estimates)

In the end, adding more muscle groups is not going to make you faster, it's usually your bodies ability to provide oxygen to those muscles that is the limiting factor.
 
It is certainly not my goal to be a naysayer, however
Imagine the chain of muscles from your footpeg to your paddle, adding your relative weak arm muscles to the chain would be the weakest link in the chain. It would also encourage too long of a stroke, pulling the hull down in the water and increasing yaw.
Why is an addition to the 'chain of muscles' not be additive rather than subtractive? Does this chain break at its 'weakest link'?
Whether encouraged or not, certainly "too long of a stroke' can be corrected.

In the end, adding more muscle groups is not going to make you faster, it's usually your bodies ability to provide oxygen to those muscles that is the limiting factor.
Surely, my " bodies [SIC] ability to provide oxygen to those muscles ... is the limiting factor", but where is the limiting factor encountered? Hopefully, my oxygen-dependent brain still works (for example). Is there any spare oxygen for the arm muscles?
 
I don't know if there's a way to measure it, other than perhaps taking blood oxygen measurements immediately post exertion, but I suspect that adding in more active muscles might mean a higher overall energy expenditure than whatever additional power one gets in their stroke.

Or worded another way: maybe I get 5% more power per stroke, but get tired 10% more.
Sort of like pushing a hull past the hull speed. It is possible, but offers low enough reward that it's generally not worth it.
 
Why is an addition to the 'chain of muscles' not be additive rather than subtractive? Does this chain break at its 'weakest link'?
Whether encouraged or not, certainly "too long of a stroke' can be corrected.

Surely, my " bodies [SIC] ability to provide oxygen to those muscles ... is the limiting factor", but where is the limiting factor encountered? Hopefully, my oxygen-dependent brain still works (for example). Is there any spare oxygen for the arm muscles?

This is a lot of theory, and I don't claim to be a kinesiology expert, but I am a trained kayaking instructor so know what to say about the standard right and wrong way to paddle (but without the kinesiology background, may or may not be all correct on the reasons why). So here goes my take - take it how you want.

A chain IS only as strong as the weakest link. Weakest link doesn't talk about how much extra a stronger link can add (the oxygen the muscles can add), but the weakest link (what part will break down first). If you are using arms along with core, the smaller arm muscles are likely to tire first, which could hinder your ability to transfer the energy from core to blade. Holding your arms in a near-locked position uses less arm energy and tires them less than actually moving them to arm paddle, but can only be done efficiently while the arm muscles aren't exhausted.

Now this may or may not come in to play, depending on how built up you are. New paddlers that arenlt athetes or in great shape to start with generally start with their arm muscles (which, as we said, aren't strong) as being stronger than their core muscles. If the new paddler spends a day trying to focus on torso rotation, they will be exhausted. They will usually last longer at first arm paddling. Only after learning the form AND having some time to build up the core muscles will they benefit from torso rotation. Sounds like you are past this and have core strength others don't yet have.

More important is the amount of stroke that actually provides power - that too long a stroke part. The range that is useful is really from where you plant the blade by your feet to where you pull it out close to your hips that you get power. Pull the blade in the water past your hips behind you and you don't really add any power (and lose a bunch as the paddle will likely start lifting water upward - which is wasted energy).

Given you only have a range of about a meter of draw where you can apply power, and if you used every bit of torso rotation and also every bit of arm muscle movement the draw length would be much longer than this, you should choose to use the muscles that will give you the most bang for the buck, which is believed to be the core for the majority of people.

So you can try to use all muscles (arm and core) to put as much power as possible in the short stroke distance. But either you will put too much power into blade and it will start cavatating (splashing, which is wasted energy). This is the equivalent to a car spinning its tires at the start of an acceleration - that power is being used by not helping you move forward as the wheels can;t hold onto the ground.

Or you will tire out as you use too much energy too quickly and build up too much lactic acid. Think of the Tour de France bike riders - they spend the vast majority of the race sitting and just using leg muscles. They only stand and bring the rest of their body in for short periods on some climbs or on sprints, and it is common on the longer cimbs to hear even some of these trained these trained athletes "hitting the wall" and losing ability to keep riding with the pack.
 
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Is anyone on this board ever going to be pushing themselves hard enough to run out of blood oxygen while out there paddling?
I think not, unless they are smokers.

I used to be quite active with athletics, and only pushed myself to that limit in 3 or 4 bicycle races.
My body actually gave me a warning approaching that limit too. My vision turned to black and white.

So I doubt we have to worry about it, unless you plan on entering the next Olympics.
 
Rather than we old duffers discussing proper technique, perhaps we should watch the best to see how it is done. Here is a video link of Olympic Champion Lisa Carrington showcasing her technique. Admittedly, this video shows the high angle racing technique of a world class sprinter, but what you see her demonstrate applies to a powerful, efficient touring stroke as well; just a slower cadence and a little more relaxed. The base principles are the same.

The stroke is a whole body thing, beginning with the legs, helping to drive the torso rotation. Power is provided with the legs, core and upper back muscles. The arms remain almost straight and strong, but as was mentioned above, your straight leading arm provides a push powered primarily by your lattisimus dorsi muscles, while your trailing arm provides a slight draw, also powered by your back and core rotation.

The latissimus dorsi are the largest muscles in the upper body and hence won't tire as easily, as opposed to over using your arms. I would think that if you use your arms, as in bending at the elbow to pull or push the paddle, you would simply replace powerful core energy with lesser arm energy. You need strong straight arms to efficiently use the power provided by your back, legs and torso. It would seem to me that you need a strong frame to avoid sloppiness and to push the boat most efficiently.

When I learned stoke technique, I was taught a low angle endurance stroke, but again, the same principles apply. In a similar vein to kayak Jim, I was told to pretend I had a sign pinned between my shoulders and to show it to the shore on both sides of the boat. If you watch Ms. Carrington from the front, you will note that her leading hand crosses the centre line of the kayak on every stroke. That is what I was taught as well. I push across with my lead arm powered largely by the upper back muscles, torso rotation and legs. I am 69 years old and can still push a fully loaded boat 30 or more kilometres a day at a stiff cruising speed without undue fatigue using this technique. As in all long distance endurance sports, running, XC skiing, cycling, etc., good technique is critical for efficient power, speed and endurance.

For this technique to work, the boat must also fit snuggly enough so you don't slop around. Your body must be comfortably upright, your hips and back should be held comfortably in place and your thigh and foot braces comfortably snug. Snug enough so you can use your legs to power your trunk, albeit not to the extreme shown in the linked video.

The type of paddle you use, Euro Blade, feathered or un-feathered, Greenland, Aluet will also affect the most efficient way to execute the stroke, Entry at the catch, high angle, low angle as well as the draw. But the basic principles of whole body power and torso rotation still apply universally.

That is the best I can manage to explain what I was taught, Learning proper technique from an expert paddler was the best thing to happen to me as a beginner paddler. It makes distance paddling fun and a pleasure, rather than a chore. You might even have a go at the odd rec race if one comes up. I always come home from a long paddling trip with a much tightened core and noticeably stronger back and abs. Lessons are not a bad investment for beginners if they can find a qualified instructor.

My two bits worth on this complex and perhaps somewhat controversial subject.

Cheers, Rick
 
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The latissimus dorsi are the largest muscles in the upper body and hence won't tire as easily, as opposed to over using your arms. I would think that if you use your arms, as in bending at the elbow to pull or push the paddle, you would simply replace powerful core energy with lesser arm energy. You need strong straight arms to efficiently use the power provided by your back, legs and torso. It would seem to me that you need a strong frame to avoid sloppiness and to push the boat most efficiently.
Now that makes sense to me.
 
It is certainly not my goal to be a naysayer, however

Why is an addition to the 'chain of muscles' not be additive rather than subtractive? Does this chain break at its 'weakest link'?
Whether encouraged or not, certainly "too long of a stroke' can be corrected.
Your arms are in between your core and the paddle, not parallel to the core muscles so there is no additive power. If you "stack" or "lock" your joints they can easily transfer the power of your core muscles. If you use your arm muscles dynamically they can be easily overpowered and you waste energy with muscle groups fighting each other.

Surely, my " bodies [SIC] ability to provide oxygen to those muscles ... is the limiting factor", but where is the limiting factor encountered? Hopefully, my oxygen-dependent brain still works (for example). Is there any spare oxygen for the arm muscles?
It is generally held that heart rate is a reasonable indicator for spare oxygen in the bloodstream for training purposes. That's why heart rate watches are so popular with the fitness crowd.
 
The issue I have with discussed technique is reference to olympic paddlers who are using a whole different style/equipped boat and perhaps paddle. Though the community can be grouped by Euro or Greenland paddle (or both) use, I’m guessing that “Wing Paddle” is a much, much smaller group. And the seats of our sea kayaks usually are not on a swivel, nor have sit-on-top hull design that allows knee flex and hip action we see on TV.

There’s an agreement to using the core muscle, rather than arms, but I wouldn’t go much further in trying to copy olympic sprint style with it’s specialized boat and paddle. The DVD’s by world class paddlers do emphasize the three or four stages/phases of the paddle stroke and refreshingly it seems Brent Reitz and Greg Barton are teaching the same thing with different styles. Though they are olympic paddlers, the instruction is oriented towards actual sea kayaks and euro blade equipment. Videos that focus on greenland paddle strokes have their own collection of instruction as well.
 
My stroke with the wing and 'euro' paddle are as identical as I can make them. Once the wing paddle teaches you to move the blade away from the boat, rather than trying to pull it straight back, it's easy to do the same motion with a standard paddle. (And probably with a Greenland or Aleut paddle too???)
Unless it's rough, I keep my knees in the middle of the cockpit as much as possible, so I can move my legs as I paddle.
So I do think it is worthwhile for sea kayakers to watch K1 and surfski videos and pay attntion to what those coaches say.
Also, I don't understand how a powerful high-angle stroke has become 'racing stroke' as though it wasn't any good for ordinary sea kayaking.
 
I totally agree Cougarmeat. I was trying quite hard to explain that the Olympic style is an extreme expression of the same technique that makes for good efficient propulsion in other forms of kayaks.

Obviously, a sea touring kayak is a very different boat, designed for an entirely different purpose, as are wing paddles, swivel seats, etc. That does not mean that the techniques are not at the base level similar, comparable and adaptable to ocean touring. In my own low angle endurance focused technique, my legs and thighs come into play, powering trunk rotation and upper back thrust at every stroke when I am pushing my boat efficiently over distance. No, there is not the aggressive knee flex or hip action of a sprint paddler, but it is there at an appropriate level all the same.

Hence my comments about boat fit. You can't execute good technique in a sea kayak if you are paddling a loose, sloppy fitting boat. If the boat is too loose, or there is no support for your hips, thighs and a good solid contact point for your feet to push against, then the lower half of your body cannot contribute to powering the boat. That is OK is all you want to do is relaxing rec paddling, but it won't get you far on an expedition and is downright dangerous in rough water in my view.
 
John,

I think the high angle vs low angle debate is a mute point. Both are used by good paddlers and I believe it is more a matter of what you were taught and what your preference is. My own technique is very low angle with the idea that all my effort goes into the stroke, rather than lifting my arms. But that is just me. Many of the folk I paddle with use a high angle stroke, but then many of them also race surf skis. It is a matter of preference in my books. I am ten years older than most, but can still stay with them over distance for the most part.

Here is another link to a dry land demo of good touring technique that I found. Note the instructions on the use of legs. She is also a low angle paddler and her technique is virtually identical to what I learned decades ago. So I guess perhaps my technique is not totally obsolete yet :p

Cheers, Rick
 
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I agree John, your hips should not be jammed in the boat, but they also shouldn't be so loose that you are sliding around in the seat. I used to paddle boats with a larger cockpit and wider, looser seating, but now prefer to paddle tighter fitting narrower boats. I have to slide into both my Norhshore Ocean and my Lootas from the back deck, The seats are supportive and secure feeling in both boats with solid thigh braces. Unlike your comments about your style of paddling with your knees in the centre, I paddle with my knees under the thigh braces, but then the Ocean boat is only 21 inches wide; the Lootas is 23, but the lower deck height is 12 inches which means that it is actually slightly tighter at the thighs on either side of the coming. I cannot get into either boat if I try to sit and then bring my legs inside. I have no issue with larger cockpits, or with knee placement either. We all have personal preferences, and there should be little dogma in my view. If is is comfortable and works for you, that is the final test.

I now prefer a tighter fitting boat with a smaller cockpit. I find I have more control of the boat and more power to push it as well. I just think that your legs should come into play for power to execute the stroke if you want maximum efficiency with the least energy expenditure. Speed, efficiency and endurance are safety in the ocean when things get exciting.
 
...you to move the blade away from the boat, rather than trying to pull it straight back, it's easy to do the same motion with a standard paddle. (And probably with a Greenland or Aleut paddle too???)
That's why they go on about the cant angle. The edge away from the kayak (upper edge) is forward of the edge nearest the kayak so as the paddle moves out it has "lift" in the direction of movement. That is, the paddle is acting as a wing. The GP has a symmetrical foil and the Aleutian an asymmetrical foil. A bit like a stunt plane, Extra 300, versus a Piper Cub.
Also, I don't understand how a powerful high-angle stroke has become 'racing stroke' as though it wasn't any good for ordinary sea kayaking.
High angle when going somewhere, low angle when waiting for the Euro paddlers to catch up.
 
I agree John, your hips should not be jammed in the boat, but they also shouldn't be so loose that you are sliding around in the seat.
No argument there - we are 'on the same wavelength' on that.
I have mostly fairly narrow boats in my collection - the widest is a Mariner Max at 23.5" beam but the cockpit and seat are not wide (same as the 22" Express), so 'just right' for me. My home-built boats have the same seat as an NDK Romany, so 'just right' for me. And all those seats are hard seats, so nice and slippery. :)
 
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