Yet another rolling video

Discussion in 'General Paddling Discussions' started by Pawistik, Jun 21, 2011.

  1. Pawistik

    Pawistik Paddler

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    Hi Folks,
    Since others are posting their videos I figured I'd post one of my own. This is my first attempt at linking together multiple videos, with a few snapshots added in to boot. The videos were from this weekend out at a small local lake in the prairie winds.

    Like MartinZ, I'll solicit feedback on my technique. At one point in the video I set up for my "B side" roll, but I seem to get completely disoriented on that side so my attempt was quickly aborted in favour of my good side. My roll has a long way to go before I can call it "bombproof". I have a good stretch where it seems to go so easy and effortless, then I'll have a bad stretch where nothing seems to work. I know one of the things that happens when it's not working is bringing my head up early.

    You can also find the video at my blog at http://pawistik.blogspot.com/2011/06/kayak-roll-practice-in-pike-lake.html

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6baPGSNGjIk[/youtube]

    Cheers,
    Bryan
     
  2. MartinZ

    MartinZ Paddler

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  3. AM

    AM Paddler

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    Hey Bryan,

    Thanks for posting the video. I consider myself a good roller, but I have only limited experience teaching/coaching rolling, and I know that they are two different skillsets, so I am reluctant to give advice. Bad advice can lead to frustration, injury, or worse.

    That said, I will tell you what I perceive, having watched the video a couple of times.

    1) I notice that you are going for a sort of c to c roll, with a strong, sudden righting movement and your head/torso coming up pretty much perpendicular to your boat. Do you ever try more of a layback motion, with a bigger semicular arc that starts with your head on your foredeck and ends with your head on your backdeck?

    2) I mention layback because on your head is coming up pretty fast while your paddle dives (1:37).

    3) Related to above, have your tried a bigger sweeping arc with your paddle?

    4) I like your hand position as far as shoulder safety is concerned (0:49). Do you ever feel any tweaks or pinches? I speak as someone who has a chronic shoulder condition (an old dislocation in the AC joint), so this is an important point to me.

    5) With your sculling, I notice that you are not in the standard position -- tits up, head back, back arched, pushing the boat away from your body (0:10). I wonder if adopting this position would give you greater buoyancy (and give you a feel of how a layback roll might end).

    Again, I'm not an experienced coach, so I'm just throwing out ideas for you to play with. I will confess that I am a convert to greenland paddling and that everything I say comes out of that experience. To me, rolling should be less about sudden, explosive movements, and more about graceful application of power through whole-body dynamics. When I was assisting in a rolling course recently, I really stressed to the students that grace, not strength, was the key to rolling safely. I know it sounds like new age bullsh*t, but that's where I am in my thinking.

    Regards,
    Andrew
     
  4. Pawistik

    Pawistik Paddler

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    Thanks for the great replies!

    Andrew, I find it difficult to really see what I'm supposed to be doing when I watch various videos. Plus there are a few different types of rolls, and I think I should be ignoring all but one or two at this stage. Having someone more experienced, or even just a different set of eyes, look at what I'm doing and asking "why?" is helpful for me to see those differences.

    To address your specific comments:
    1) What I thought I was going for was a sweep roll, but I see what you mean. I spent some time in the pool this winter with the local whitewater kayak club. They seem to prefer the C to C, and that's what they had me practicing for a while. On my own and through the help of a local sea kayak instructor, I thought I had gone back to the sweep. However, maybe I've hybridized them? Or bastardized them so that I'm not really doing what I should be properly.

    2) When things go wrong, I know my paddle dives and my head is up. I do try to force myself to bring the head up last, but sometimes I just can't fight it.

    3) I will try to focus on that. I think I can get someone to help me standing in the water and guide my paddle around in the water forcing me to do that big arc and helping me figure out where the paddle is supposed to be going. That's one of the things that the instructor that was helping me a bit this winter was doing for me - guiding my paddle around through the arc.

    4) I don't know what my wife thinks is so funny about that. No, I haven't felt any tweaks or other pains in the shoulder. After a session of rolling practice my back can be sore (for which I do stretching, or at least I should be), but no shoulder issues and I do prefer to keep it that way.

    5) It seems that a lot of what I'm doing is "non-standard". This, too, I will try to think about when I'm on the water (I better make myself a set of notes!).

    I kinda think that I'm combining a few things, using imperfect technique, and muddling through. It works for me some of the time, maybe even most of the time in perfect conditions, but it's never going to achieve that goal of having a reliable roll until I start cleaning it up. And, as you mentioned, there's the potential for injury too when things are done improperly.

    One thing I can do is take it back a few steps and work through the elements of the roll as described in Doug Alderson's "Sea Kayak Strokes" book which is what I went through when I was first learning to roll last summer.

    Cheers,
    Bryan
     
  5. nootka

    nootka Paddler

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    two suggestions:
    (1) try a forward half sweep at the end of your roll. It may take some time to figure out what I mean (on your own); but if you do it, it should seem obvious.
    (2) try a sculling roll with a greenland paddle. You'll probably need coaching to get this one; but it changes your roll from a 1-2-3 recipe to a do-it-till-it-works sequence.
     
  6. dvfrggr

    dvfrggr Paddler

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    Dido, after perfecting the pool roll I was humbled in the surf zone until a coach recommended finishing up with a fast forward sweep, when the bombs go off on the river or in the surf the forward sweep adds a brace and puts you into position for your next stroke or turn it into a forward scull to finish bringing yourself up. I know with me it forces me to keep my head down and we all know how important that is.

    Dave R
     
  7. AM

    AM Paddler

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    Bryan, I should qualify one thing I said right away. I mentioned the "standard" position for side sculling, but I should have said "greenland" position for side sculling. In your video, you look at lot like this WW guy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJVLGvS4YuA

    Shows who you've been hanging out with all winter. :wink:

    I aim for something more like this position:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enhocETLM80

    I find that it keeps my shoulder safer, as the motion is gentler and is initiated by the torso, rather than the onside arm. It is good practice for the layback roll because it emphasizes the torso.

    In the end, you're doing it one standard way, I'm doing it another. But as a member of the greendland cult, I am required by our leadership to aggressively recruit new candidates to further our plans of on-water domination. :D
     
  8. Pawistik

    Pawistik Paddler

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    Well, I've got the paddle.
     
  9. WaterMark

    WaterMark Paddler

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    Once I figured this out it helped my roll a lot.

    -If I don't quite get the roll, the forward sweep at the end will get me up the rest of the way.
    -I end up in a position ready to paddle
    -Keeping the paddle moving in the water keep me from going all the way up and over if I'm over-zealous on my roll
     
  10. Pawistik

    Pawistik Paddler

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    Andrew, here is Ken Whiting showing how to do the sculling brace but from a sea kayak this time: [youtube]http://youtu.be/WDyug_cURao[/youtube]

    This seems more akin to what I'm doing, or in other words, similar to that whitewater version. Or if there are fairly significant differences, I'm not seeing them. It doesn't really show the layback like the woman uses in the second video you linked.

    Here's another video that depicts and describes that side sculling motion from another angle:
    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvKaqOGSYgY&NR=1[/youtube]

    I also don't want to get too hung up in "style". Whitewater, greenland, or conventional sea kayak, it doesn't matter to me so much as finding something that will work consistently with consideration given to muscle and joint safety.

    Lots to think about and try the next time I find myself underwater, probably on Saturday.

    Cheers,
    Bryan
     
  11. RobertE

    RobertE New Member

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    In addition to laying back more as has been suggested, try keeping your inbound hand at your inbound shoulder through the roll. If that hand gets away, you lose the support.
     
  12. sushiy

    sushiy Paddler

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    A few questions.
    What are your hand( wrist) trying to do during the roll? What position ( relation to your body) are they at start, and what position at the end?

    Lower body; When are you trying to rotate the boat( or hip snap), or switch from one knee to the other? Are you trying to do putting the pressure to the deck through out the roll or are you trying to do explosive kick at certain point?

    Your head; Where are you trying to watch? Are you trying to watch sky as you come out? or is it stern or water beyond the stern? Or have you tryed to watch the blade all the way till you are up right?
     
  13. lance_randy

    lance_randy Paddler

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    Well put, I completely agree. A proper roll should take no more effort than say, getting out of a chair. Nobody uses an explosive movement to sit up out of a chair, you could, but it would be wasted effort. What it takes is graceful, co-ordinated motion. Same thing with rolling. I suppose a fast roll is good for surfing, white water and rock gardens, but to really get the feel for what your body needs to be doing, you got to slow it down. Try greenland paddles, and watch the cheri perry/turner wilson videos http://www.kayakways.net/rollingvideo.html

    For the sculling and layback rolls, think about keeping your shoulders and upper back exactly flat against the water, in this position you will be looking straight up. You have to arch your back, and really twist from the lower midsection, it takes a fair bit of flexibility to get into this position. If you are finding it difficult, practice this exercise: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgIHmsEnQ20[/youtube] The yoga pose 'seated twist' will also get the lower back properly loosened up. The correctness of your body position will be determined by the ease of which you able to execute the 'balance brace'. Effortless balance brace=perfect layback position.

    I think the most trouble people have with rolling is due to lack of flexibility, so they end up trying to 'power it up' with the paddle. This is murder on the shoulders, a 90 degree bend in the elbow of the sweeping arm will help to protect the shoulder joint, but it's still only a matter of time before something 'pops' :evil: However, with proper layback technique and a nice slow, controlled roll you can have your arm out completely straight as it is with the 'shotgun roll' with no strain to the shoulder what so ever.

    After you get the body mechanics down cold, you can switch back to your euro blade, and you will have the choice to roll slow and smooth (G style) or you can adapt the technique to roll really quick, with just a tiny subtle flick of the paddle, no force.