Hi Folks,

I'll be heading out West in the third week of April for a PC Level 2 kayak course in the vicinity of Comox and Quadra Island (Discovery Islands Lodge). Being that I'm a prairie boy, I'm not too sure what to expect and what paddling gear I should bring or acquire. I'm expecting cold water (6°C?), moderate air temperatures (warmer than typical in Sask in April, but not warm), and a high probability of being rained on.

Specifically, I'm wondering about dry suits, dry tops & dry pants. I do not own a dry suit, but I do own a dry top. I would like to know what you think of my idea of getting some dry pants (or semi-dry pants) to go with my dry top. Is this an adequate solution for the expected conditions? I expect that we'll be doing a certain amount of work IN the water, so something to help keep me comfortable will be welcomed of course. I know that a dry suit is likely best, but, they cost a lot of money and really my opportunity to use one is fairly limited. With travel & accommodations, this course is already costing me over $1300. I can purchase dry pants for a lot less money than a full suit, and I think the resulting combination will be more versatile together with the dry top.

I also own a shorty wet suit, if that would be a useful addition to the system.

So, what say you? Sure, I know I can ask the course instructor this sort of thing (I haven't yet received the detailed information from her, such as what to bring/wear), but what's the fun in that?

Cheers,
Bryan in Saskatoon

Dry pants are only relatively dry, whether we're talking about the kind with the cinch-up neoprene waistband or the kind that 'mate' with a top by rolling together. I only have direct experience of the cinch-up type (Kokatat Tempest pants), but since those are the cheapest option, I'm assuming you have been looking at them. If you swim in them, expect seepage down your waist and into your legs.

I think drypants do fill a niche: I can see them being very useful for summer touring, where you are not playing aggressively and are being conservative with your paddling, don't expect to capsize, etc. and simply want something to keep your feet and bum dry for daylong comfort.

However, in your case PC Level 2 will see you in the water probably every day doing rescures, reentries, etc., so you need gear that you will be comfortable in submerged. Since Level 2 requires only 1 night of camping during the course, I think you would be better off with a good farmer john and lots of fleece under your drytop. That should keep you warm for the daily swim sessions and you would be able to dry everything out overnight in whatever accommodation you're staying in (Discovery Lodge?).

I understand your quandry: I am doing PC Level 3 this year and had the same cost-benefit decision to make. I ended up buying a used drysuit. Level 3, however, is early April and every night is camping, so dryness and comfort become more of an issue.

Good luck.
Andrew

If possible, try and arrange to borrow or rent a dry suit through the group organizing the trip/training. I use the Tempest pant/Dry top combination and I can attest that it is not ideal for regular "swimming". It will keep you dry if you can roll up, or if you're wading into the water, but for full submersion and repeated self rescues you will get wet. Not soaked, but you will have leakage. If it was a one day course that wouldn't be a concern, but over a few days you will run out of dry clothes and might have a miserable time.

I second the idea of trying to find a used dry-suit, if you can.

Drying off clothing in one overnight might be an issue at the lodge; they run on solar with generator backup and aren't pumping out a lot of heat. The upstairs wood stove will be the main source of heat for drying things I think. You might check with the lodge owners for their input on that; Ralph is a kayaker and obviously familiar with what works there. So if you go the farmer john wetsuit with drytop combo, an extra day's worth of fleece would give an extra day for drying out.

I've not had good luck with the drytop/drypants combo for extended or frequent submersion. Echoing earlier responses, the farmer john and drytop is probably your cheapest viable alternative The nonleaking drysuit, of course, is your best alternative other than its cost.

You can rent a drysuit.

I believe that Kayak Academy does so, but I have no idea what they might charge.

Thanks for the replies folks.

We'll be camping out 2 nights, even though only one night is required by the PC course.

Cheers,
Bryan

Drysuit rentals run $30-40 per day. Add on a day on either side for picking up and returning, and the bill can add up. At a certain point, it just makes sense to buy one.

When I did PC Level 2, it was a four night campout in late May with cold, rainy conditions. Four of us had drysuits, two had wetsuits. The drysuited people were definitely more comfortable and it sure sucked getting into a clammy wetsuit every morning, but at that time I was determined to keep my costs down so I just dealt with it. It turned out to be an amazing experience overall and I came to see the challenge of staying warm to be part of the learning process. Listening to the rain drumming on my tarp at 6:00 every morning, lying there knowing that my *^&% wetsuit was out there waiting for me like some dripping ghoul, became a grim pleasure.

Andrew

Sounds like a neat opportunity. Will you be playing in Surge Narrows (helmeted, presumably)?

I know we are doing stuff in and around Surge Narrows. Don't know much else though. So, I should pack my broomball helmet too?

I know of a used drysuit that a fellow has for sale. He should be back from his own trip west tomorrow so maybe I'll go try his suit on before I make any decisions.

Cheers,
Bryan

Ecomarine in Vancouver rents Kokatat GMER dry suits. It will be the best investment you can make in having a positive outcome. Being dry and comfortable increases learning outcomes exponentially, especially when practicing rescues, rolling and when you will no doubt capsize while learning about currents.

strongly recommend you rent one. if you are cold, wet and miserable and only thinking about when you can get warm and dry you are not thinking about what is being presented, listening and being engaged as a student.

The level 2 course specifies a max of 3 knots current, which is barely enough to get a good ferry angle at Surge.

Ecomarine is no longer renting suits. Too much repair work apparently. That leaves Deep Cove locally.

my assumption would be that they head over to the dogleg (sorry, goepel passage, as lanny insists) for the main current work. i found the flow at around 3kn there just enough for the intro to ferrying...

One idea that I haven't seen suggested yet is to rent(or buy?) a wetsuit meant for surfing. It'll have that rubber band effect of a full body wetsuit,so not ideal for long periods of paddling, but for immersion it's the next best thing to a drysuit.

Been there, done that. Rider, you've nailed it: surfsuits are terrible for paddling, but quite awesome for horsing around in the water. I've worn mine for kayak surfing and for training and I was very impressed. In some senses, they are better than drysuits for training because there is less of a danger of catching fabric and tearing the suit. I only know one other guy who uses one, and he prefers his surfsuit to his drysuit for really wet activities like re-entry practice.

Now for the downsides: besides nasty armpit rash, there are two. First, struggling into a wet surfsuit is like wrestling a python. Second, there's no place to pee except in the suit. That might rule out borrowing one...

I agree with AM Farmer john is the versatile way to go? I used this combination my first couple years. Not sure I would buy a used drysuit. Better off using wetsuit till you can buy new drysuit JMO.

I'm assuming by the approx. date and venues this course is being offered by Comox Valley Kayaks (CVK).
Here's what the website says...

http://www.comoxvalleykayaks.com/lessons/paddle-canada-courses/level-2-certification.html

If it is CVK, contact them to arrange the wetsuit.

Enjoy...Doug Taylor runs a great course.

Ken, you are at least half right. I am actually taking the course through Kingston Kayak Instruction and Viki Cirkvencic. But, Viki is working together with Doug and Comox Valley Kayaks to put on this course, so you are spot on. Viki is a local instructor here in Saskatoon. Thanks for pointing me to the description from CVK - the info there is much more detailed than what Viki has put up on the website, though I know she is sending out detailed information shortly, including recommended gear.

I did have some time to talk with Viki this evening about dry tops, (not quite) dry pants, and dry suits. Her comments echoed much of what has been said here, that the dry pants/top combo is not really dry and will be OK for walking into the water and OK for paddling, but not the best for actual sustained immersion. She is of the opinion that I should look into a dry suit if I can afford it, that it will be worth it in the long run. A friend of ours does have one for sale so I'll talk to him and see what condition it is in and perhaps test it out for leaks on Wednesday evening at the local kayak club's pool session.

So that does give me a few options - I can see if that used dry suit is gonna work for me, otherwise I may be able to borrow or rent what I need from CVK.

Cheers,
Bryan

You lose most of your heat through your head, armpits and groin; any place where there is major blood flow near the body surface. These are the areas that need to be protected most.

A dry top over a lightweight farmer john and a neoprene hood that fits under the helmet. Paddling gloves and neoprene boots with teva sandals to protect the extremeties. There will be some leakage of water but it will not be enough to compromise body core temperatures.

Make sure the used suit is actually a dry suit without holes or worn out material. I saw one person who was loaned a supposed dry suit. She was wet and suffering from stage 1 hypothermia within 15 minutes of her first wet exit.

I never did pursue that used dry suit since it would have been "well used" and for a similar price I could get a brand new Kokatat Tropos drysuit. However, I am now considering buying a drysuit, new rather than used.

I am deciding between two different suits and I'd like to get some feedback in the decision making. I can get either of them for a pretty good deal, much less than is listed as the retail price on the web site.

The first suit is the Level Six Barrier drysuit: http://www.levelsix.com/store/index.php/barrier-dry-suit.html
It has a rear entry which is supposed to be more comfortable to wear, but I am concerned about how easy this is to get on and do up the zipper by oneself.


The second is the NRS Mariner drysuit: http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp?pfid=2559&pdeptid=1174
Front entry, it has the added feature of a removable hood.


Things for me to consider are comfort while paddling, durability, ease of use, etc. Neither of these are items that will be in stock locally so there is no opportunity to try them on before I buy. That's why if I can get some experienced advice from members here it will be a great advantage to me. Currently, I am leaning toward the NRS offering.

Cheers,
Bryan

I used the Barrier for two seasons. It did the job but I find that level six sizing in its tops to be a little off. From my experience paddlers often need to order one size larger then an equivalent kokatat due to shoulder width/arm length. The sizing up is not usually triggered by waist/chest measurements.

The zipper across the shoulders did not pose an issue but some paddlers with certain pfd styles found it slightly constricting compared to a front entry. I found the rear zipper surprisingly easy to close, no harder then the top 1/4 of a front entry. If you pursue this option I would strongly urge you to try out a Mack or Duke top for shoulder width, if there is only a little slack go a size up.

One benefits of having a rear entry suit is the great seal around the skirt. The hand pockets is the feature I miss most.

I do not have any personal experience with the nrs Mariner. Keep in mind you'll pay brokerage and duties for the nrs product if ordered through the website as a pro-deal. A friend with hobbit like feet complained the latex socks were constricting.

To get additional feed back re:sizing, you might want to let readers know your stature. Another paddler of similar size might be able to provide sizing feedback.

Keep in mind, most pro deal's will not let you return products other then for warranty issues.

Good luck on the course.

Thanks for that great insight costain. That's pretty much what I'm expecting about the returns - that's why I really want to get the right suit. In terms of ensuring I get the right suit, the best option would be to wait until I can try them on, but I do want to get a drysuit and this upcoming trip is just the excuse I needed!

Regarding the sizing, that is a real concern for me. I even called Level 6 up last week to talk to them about it. My point of reference is that I purchased a Level 6 Mercury rash guard last fall via MEC. I bought the XL, which, according to the size chart, should fit. I know this rash guard shirt should be tight, dang, I should be able to breathe a bit shouldn't I?

On the phone, they suggested that I might be borderline between the XL & XXL sizes. They suggested I might want to choose the XXL if I was expecting to wear a fair bit of clothing underneath the drysuit.

As requested, my size: I'm 6'3" tall, size 12 feet, 210 lbs, from the back of my neck to my cuff is 37", my chest is 43.5", inseam is 34", and waist is debatable. My tongue is in cheek on that last dimension - I wear a 36" pant but my wife measured me up the other day when I was trying to figure out which size of drysuit I am and she measured my waist at 40".

By the way, what does it mean to have hobbit-like feet? Hairy?

Cheers,
Bryan

At 6'5", 38" waist (36/34 pants - don't you just like marketing flattery), back of my neck to my cuff is 40", 49" chest, I filled out the XXL with no space to spare in the shoulders and no slack at all across the back when I touched my toes. The rest of the suit was quite baggy and the cuffs would drag on the floor if I didn't do them but the pants are cut "snowboarder style" to appease the trendy ww crowd. I squeezed size 15 feet into the socks so you shouldn't have a problem.

The real limiting factor and the reason I ended up getting rid of it was the width of the shoulders but I'm not built like most.

The XXL will definitely fit but might be on the quite baggy side.

Hey folks, I thought I would post an aprés-course update.

I ended up ordering the Level 6 Barrier dry suit in XXL. I chose the XXL size based on my previous experience and on the comments above. It is massive and I probably could have gotten away with the XL size. But, it worked great and did not feel overly large when actually in use. It's pretty novel for me to be in the water so much and at the end of the day to be bone dry. I wore long underwear under the dry suit and it was the right combination for both air and water conditions. On my head I wore a thin neoprene hood purchased at the local dive shop. On my hands I either wore thin leather/neoprene paddling gloves (comfortable but not very warm) or thicker neoprene gloves (uncomfortable, but warm) depending on the conditions and the activities. I wore nose plugs and in my ears I wore Doc's Proplugs and they worked well to keep my various sinuses and cavities saltwater-free (I sometimes have troubles with water not draining from my ears).

Doug & Viki are a fantastic team and the two of them put on a great course together. I think having two instructors that work together so well is a great asset to the student - we get multiple perspectives, each has their own tips, observations, and contributions to make.

Our weather was great: generally partly cloudy conditions with a smattering of rain and we even had hail twice, though it was the puniest hail I've ever seen and it hardly counted. Our winds were mostly light, though we had one day of moderate wind that allowed us to get in our required 12-19 knots of wind.

We spent time in the Surge Narrows area, the dogleg/Goepel Passage, Octopus Islands, Hole In The Wall & Francisco Island. It's a gorgeous area. Discovery Islands Lodge is a fantastic place - a lodge that is run by kayakers, for kayakers. You guys out there have an incredible resource in places like that and I hope you appreciate it.

I learned a TON on this course and I think my paddling advanced greatly. It was a VERY busy course with every day being a long one. The other participants (3 students in total, plus another instructor sitting in and acting as student) were great & we all got along very well right from the start. Unfortunately, I developed a head cold shortly before the start of the course so that didn't help my energy levels any. Thankfully, I was able to work through it.

Now, back in Saskatchewan, I am enjoying what's left of the coffee picked up at Rhodo's before the trip. In fact, I'm drinking a cup right now. It doesn't taste the same though, here in my office, as it did on Francisco Island.

I have some pictures which I'll try to post in the next few days.

Cheers,
Bryan