Hi guys,

Can anyone make a direct comparison of how these two boats paddle for me please?

I have an AT14 (and some of you may remember my post a while back about tracking, which is now sorted WITHOUT the need to chop it open and add a skeg!!!) that I am currently finishing off (after three years of paddling it!!!), but having learnt a great deal throughout the build, and through subsequent use, I would love to build a second boat. However, with funds being at a premium I will only do this if there is a significant paddling benefit of the Shearwater over the Arctic Tern. I have read the reviews on paddling.net, but the shearwater seems to be lagging behind the Tern here (Shearwater 14 = no reviews, AT14 = 11 reviews).

I'm not in the least bit worried about build differences, what I really need is a comparison from someone who has paddled both boats.

Thanks,

Chris

What would you be trying to achieve by building a different kayak? What characteristics are you hoping to have different in the shearwater kayak?

I take it that it is th Sheawater Widgeon that you are asking about? http://www.shearwater-boats.com/widgeon.html

Cheers,
Bryan

Sorry, should have been more specific. I meant the CLC Shearwater 14 http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/kayak-kits/shearwater-kayaks/shearwater-14-small-sea-kayak-kit.html

Firstly I love the look of the cambered deck on the Shearwater, over the angled deck of the Tern, but also I think the deck lends itself much more to customisation of the hatches, a sunken compass mount, and other fittings, and the cockpit looks like a better fit for me in terms of comfort. But more than anything else, I LOVE the greenland-esque sweep of the bow and stern on the Shearwater, it is just a much prettier boat!!! Plus, I thoroughly enjoyed building the boat and would simply want to enjoy the process all over again

Chris

Sounds like you've made your decision!

I haven't paddled either boat, but some observations:

-the cambered deck of the clc will give more problems for customization than the pygmy because of the tension being released in cutting into the curved deck. Probably not too big a deal, but it will take a few more underside bracing attempts (to match curvature) for any covers.
-the actual underwater shape of both boats is virtually identical, so one would think that on water behaviour would be extremely similar, except
-I am not certain, but think that the pygmy cockpit is about 4 inches behind that of the shearwater.

I just finished building a CLC Shearwater 14 this spring and the weather has finally gotten nice enough for me to take it out for a few days of paddling. However, I have never paddled an Arctic Tern 14 so I'm no help with a comparison. I did paddle an Osprey and a Coho a few years ago at a demo day and while they were fun, the cockpits were much too roomy for my taste. It was long enough ago that I can't remember how they handled in comparison. The Shearwater 14 cockpit is a much snugger fit which suits me well (I installed a Redfish custom seat and also moved the forward bulkhead back since I have short legs to maximize space in the forward hold).

I have enjoyed paddling the Shearwater so far. It tracks well, a bit of weathercocking with the winds and waves we've been having lately on Lake Washington, but nothing that can't be corrected with a slight lean or a few extra strokes (no rudder or skeg installed). Seems to surf well on the wind/motorboat waves on the lake, but I haven't had it out in any really big waves. I'm sure it's not as fast as a longer boat, but seems to move well enough for the paddling I do. I really love the way it looks. The curved lines on it and the Sapele deck was definitely a major factor in my decision to build the Shearwater over a Pygmy boat (along with the roomy cockpit issue).

If there's anyone out there in the Seattle area with an AT 14 maybe we could get together and do a test paddle/comparison?

Chris - Good luck with your decision - if you have any specific questions feel free to PM me.
Kathy

KathyD,
I'm in Seattle, own a Tern 14 and plan on paddling tomorrow (Friday). I'm also off this weekend but was thinking of paddling other boats. Are you free? The lake surface is 67 degrees right now.
Want to swap boats tomorrow?
Jon

Hi Jon,

Friday sounds good to me - I sent you a PM.

Kathy

While I can't actually say I've paddled both boats back to back, I did heavily research the two hull designs and efficiency charts before building the 17 foot Tern. I agree with mick_allen, I bet they paddle very similarly. And I totally agree with you that the finer up swept bow and stern, the deck panels, and even the non-peaked coaming look much nicer in the Shearwater line. But if they paddle very similarly why would you go through all that work to build just a slightly different version of your existing boat?

I'm also itching to build another boat already, but I wanted to go even lighter, cheaper, and more dramatic. I'm gonna attempt the Sea Rider in the same clear vinyl as a day touring boat, since I already have lots of dry gear storage in the AT-17... She'll weigh about 30 lbs, the plans are free, and it would probably cost less than $150 for materials. http://yostwerks.com/ It'll be a much different building experience and she'll paddle much differently too.

Thanks for all your replies guys!

Kathy and Jon: Hope you have a great paddle and very much look forward to your thoughts on the two boats after a swap (Kathy, I saw the photos of your boat and the build and it does look stunning!!).

Mick: Thanks, despite having studied some engineering at Uni I didn't even think about that!!! Amazing how blinded we can become?!?

Phrancis: Wow! Those clear boats where you can see the frame are very cool, thanks for the link

Cheers all,

Chris

Jon and I met today with our Pygmy Arctic Tern 14 and CLC Shearwater 14 for a nice paddle on Lake Washington. It was a warm, sunny day with light winds and some boat wakes. A great day for a paddle. We switched boats and paddled a few miles south on the lake. Jon will have the best comparison since I've only paddled my Shearwater 14 about 3 times since I've built it. Also keep in mind that the light winds meant we couldn't test the differences in windy or wavy conditions. I think the main differences we noted were:

1. The Arctic Tern had greater initial stability
2. The Arctic Tern had a lower foredeck (in front of the cockpit - if someone has a low paddle angle the higher deck may be noticeable on the Shearwater).
3. (This was Jon's observation) During a leaned turn, you could feel the chines on the Arctic Tern more than on the Shearwater; the Shearwater had a smoother lean than the Tern.
4. I didn't notice any major differences in speed - we both seemed to keep on pace with each other easily (Jon may have been holding back - he's obviously had much more paddling time than I have).

We did notice that we'd set up the cockpits in each of the boats for specific paddlers (I think Jon was pretty squeezed in mine since I'd set it for short people, but he didn't complain!) He had installed a very comfortable seat and minicel on the hip and thigh braces that made the Tern a nice fit. I didn't feel that the cockpit was too roomy like on the demo Pygmys I had paddled previously.

I thought both boats were very nice looking. (I've tried to post a photo of both boats at the launch point, but seem to be having problems with posting - maybe I'll try again tomorrow).

Chris - too bad you don't live closer to someone with a Shearwater so you could test paddle. I'm not sure where you are located - have you checked the CLC builder's club to see if there is anyone in your area?

Kathy

That's great feedback Kathy, and I'm glad you had a great days paddling into the bargain

I'm in the far South West of the UK, but have checked with our local CLC supplier (Fyne boats) and they have not supplied ANY Shearwater kits in the UK!!! I will try checking with CLC (given that I imported my kit direct from Pygmy it's perfectly feasible someone else may have done the same direct from CLC), but last time I looked I think it was all Chesapeakes if I remember rightly..?

Did you feel any difference in the secondary stability when the boats were leaned? Did either of you try rolling the two boats? Is there more knee room in the Shearwater given the higher fore deck?

Thanks again,

Chris

I didn't think it possible but Kathy's boat is MUCH more stunning in real life than the photos suggest. It is a gorgeous boat. Her workmanship (workwomanship?) is evident in all aspects of the build. Heck, her fillet work is art whereas mine simply gets the job done. My Tern looked utterly utilitarian and ordinary next to it.

Kathy's personalized bulkhead placement was problematic for me as my feet were hard against it and knees were forced awkwardly outwards and up against an unpadded area under the deck. Not a reflection on the Shearwater but it did restrict my ability to rotate, lean, edge and brace. As I am 190 pounds nobody had me figured as the target demographic for either boat and I force them lower in the water than design intent. That means that it takes a great deal of lean for me to break the sterns loose. I never got to that point in the short time I got to spend in the Shearwater.

There is a marked difference in the initial stability of the two designs and how they transition into the secondary. The Shearwater is loose in initial and transitions smoothly into the secondary with graduated resistance. My Tern, on the other hand, has a "chunky" feel where the initial is strong, obvious and resistant to moving towards the secondary. Once past that point the range of the secondary is pretty broad and it takes more effort to keep it up on edge.


Maybe chunky isn't the right word. I don't know. The word that came to mind when edging Kathy's boat was "elegant" as varying degrees of lean resulted in varying degrees of turn. No-brainer, right? My Tern doesn't work that way, though. Slight degrees of lean within the range of the primary do not result in a turn in my Pygmy. It needs to be pushed past that point to start tightening up and once far enough over the stern breaks loose and skids around. Kathy's boat is much more fluid in that respect.

The higher deck elevation on the Shearwater came as a surprise that I didn’t notice until I was back in my Tern. Wow. Big difference. I went home and did some reshaping of my seat and kneebraces.

A properly sized paddler would have different observations in both of these boats but I am pretty certain that the differences in the stability curves of the two designs would be noted by any paddler. I would think that a skilled paddler in the designed weight range would appreciate the stability curve offered by the Shearwater over the Tern. Further, I think that the Shearwater hull might offer a better platform for skills development, albeit more swim opportunities during the process.

Great feedback Jon, I really appreciate that (and now wish that the Shearwater 14 had been available when I bought my Tern!!!). So does the Shearwater have more knee room/deck height than the Tern?

I think I'm going to keep my Tern, simply from the point of view that I have spent a great deal of time and money in building this boat, and will instead think about getting a Shearwater 17 with a view to making it an LV version (I have already inquired to CLC about this possibility). This would leave me with the Tern for poking around in the rocks and playing in the waves, and the Shearwater for covering miles (I still want it to be a day boat, but don't want to have to ballast it for day paddles).

Thanks ever so much to you and Kathy for your feedback, given the lack of wooden boat builders/paddlers here it really does help

Chris

The Shearwater does have more knee room.


Peaked coaming of Tern stands out here:


Bowsweep comparison:

Here's another photo of side-by-side comparison (by the way, Jon's boat is beautiful - not at all utilitarian)



I also thought the Shearwater has more knee room than the Tern. The Shearwater knee height is listed at 10 inches (25 cm) on the CLC web site. I'm not sure how they measure this. I measured the height from the hull to the coaming at the location where my knee sits (see photo) and it is about 11 inches (28 cm). However, since the hull is V-shaped, the bottom of the kayak slopes, so the deck height varies quite a bit depending if you're close to the side of the kayak or in the middle near the peak of the deck and bottom of the V in the hull. If one took a hypothetical line straight across the kayak at the fillet joint where the side and bottom hull panels meet (about the top of the white board in the photo), the knee height is about 10 inches where I measured it. Chris, perhaps this will help - you can measure on your boat and see what you come up with. Just for comparison I also measured the maximum height from the bottom of the V in the hull to the bottom side of the peak in the deck (inside boat, not to top of coaming) and it is about 12.5 inches (32 cm).




Neither of us tried rolling. I've got the 180 degree roll down, but am still aspiring to the remaining 180 degrees to get back upright!

Kathy

Inside dimension on my Tern from keel to deck at the front of the cockpit is 11". It's 10" at the knee and I have ~1/2" of padding between the deck and my kneecap.

Also, look at how much deeper the "V" is on that Shearwater.

Enough of this. I'm loaded up and on my way paddling.

Cheers!

This is really fabulous -- great comparison!

*****

That is fabulous guys, and both boats look amazing!!!

My biggest gripe with the Tern has been lack of knee room. I am partially disabled and have had a few occassions where my legs end up so painful I have had to get out of the boat (no fun when you're a mile offshore!!!), but that is a HUGE problem over here because of the lack of builders (and hence boats to try). I just don't get that trouble in our Nigel Dennis double, and I don't spend long enough in my surf boats for them to cause me that problem.

On the other hand I am within two-three weeks of finally finishing my Tern (having been paddling it for three years now!!!), and having had it for that long I have sorted all my deck fittings and other stowage to work EXACTLY how I want. I also know that were I to sell it to fund buying a Shearwater I wouldn't get anything like a) what I need to buy and finish the Shearwater or, b) cover what I've spent on my Tern.

Isn't life tricky?!?

Just have to say again guys, thanks SO much for your feedback. I don't think I've EVER had such a helpful response to an enquiry on any web forum, kayaking or otherwise.

Chris