Another "What were they thinking?" example - Valley skeg control box

JohnAbercrombie

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"Hey, lets cover the connection between the cable tube and the control box with resin and glass. It will look really smooth!"

IMG_0416.JPG


Valley Nordkapp LV SN xxxxxxxxxxL609 2009 model?

Makes a simple repair into a major job.
 

mick_allen

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is there any way to have/make a 'connection' coupling at the end of the glassed area? Conceptually if the rod can run in the glassed area, that should make no difference: the 'only' important aspect is keeping the tube restrained so that it doesn't change length - so whether at the box or the end of the glassed area 'should' make no diff.
Anyway good luck.
[you have to give them credit for their optimism that this is the end of all problems!]
 

JohnAbercrombie

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I'm going to try to give this job a pass.
I think Valley use a compression fitting between the plastic tube and the skeg box - the type with a compressible one-time use washer over the tube?
I don't know if they use that same type of fitting at the control box end?

Trying to keep a slippery plastic tube in a fitting with just sealant is a challenge.
 

mick_allen

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especially as the tube/sleeve is put under tension each time the skeg is pushed down. [rod/cable is compressed, so tube is equally put under tension at the controlbox fitting and the skegbox fitting.
Incidentally on the other thread, the KS line skeg would not put the tube under required push/pull stresses to operate - to be sure, there'd be some, but it would be more due to friction/alignment type effects. However, thinking more on this, it would be really helpful to restrain the tube as it could give bending stresses right at the skeg box as the output line angle of actuation is 90 deg to the controlbox location - interesting.
You'd think they would have kept the actuation angle similar/better than the older KS cable skeg - obviously 2 different designers with the new one more interested in detail and the old one more interested in function.
 

JohnAbercrombie

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Line skeg-
I was thinking aobut how many 'actuations' it will take to saw through the tube with that Spectra line. :)
Probably , time to failure > my expected lifetime :)
 

red kite

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"Hey, lets cover the connection between the cable tube and the control box with resin and glass. It will look really smooth!"

View attachment 9763

Valley Nordkapp LV SN xxxxxxxxxxL609 2009 model?

Makes a simple repair into a major job.
What does the slider box look like on this one?
For a while the Valley slider (specially on carbon-Kevlar versions) had a set screw in the removable slider insert that was meant to keep the tubing in place. The weakest spot in that version was the very thin graphite rod and the knob set screw too close to the end of the rod, so that tightening it would often crush or splinter the rod.

(And just for the record, this approach is not a "Valley or Nordkapp only" phenomenon, there are SOME Gulfstreams, Assateagues, Shadows and more, of a variety of vintage, out there with the same skeg housing attachment...)
 

JohnAbercrombie

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(And just for the record, this approach is not a "Valley or Nordkapp only" phenomenon, there are SOME Gulfstreams, Assateagues, Shadows and more, of a variety of vintage, out there with the same skeg housing attachment...)
IMO, there's really no reason to cover the attachment area inside where the tubing attaches to the control box.
Resin won't stick well to that white (polyethylene ?) plastic tubing, so it's purely cosmetic....eventually.

I've read that there's a compression fitting at the skeg box to connect the plastic tube to the skeg box. On this kayak that was all covered with a liberal amount of glass mat and resin, too.

I sent an email to Valley asking them about this, wondering if they had a preferred repair strategy. What a surprise...I haven't got an answer.
Product support, circa 2021.
:thumbsdown::thumbsdown:
 

red kite

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IMO, there's really no reason to cover the attachment area inside where the tubing attaches to the control box.
Resin won't stick well to that white (polyethylene ?) plastic tubing, so it's purely cosmetic....eventually.

I've read that there's a compression fitting at the skeg box to connect the plastic tube to the skeg box. On this kayak that was all covered with a liberal amount of glass mat and resin, too.

I sent an email to Valley asking them about this, wondering if they had a preferred repair strategy. What a surprise...I haven't got an answer.
Product support, circa 2021.
:thumbsdown::thumbsdown:
Oh, I agree. It's just not uniquely Valley who doesn't / didn't seem to care / think about real life experiences and maintenance of the skeg system once it's gone through their QC.

I never thought I'd see the day...
The newer NDK slider system seems to be the cleanest / easiest to maintain out of the factory.
(2007 Explorer LV, the post 2010 version works on the same principle with somewhat different hardware)
NDK skeg slider.jpeg


Having said that, I have yet to see how Current Designs solved it on their newer Danish style skeg boat line-up. Which, possibly, speaks for itself?
 
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red kite

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1617206457579.png


This is what I use for retrofits. I glass in the nylon fitting at the slider because handling two wrenches that close to the hull can be a struggle. Whereas the brass compression fitting seems to work well at the skeg box. I guess it could also be replaced with the nylon version?

Thing to keep in mind is the slight differences in diameter between 6mm and 1/4" tubing and the metric / imperial threads on the brass fitting. Specially if that housing is glassed in all the way...
 

red kite

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How does the nylon fitting attach to the tube?
Sorry, no access to my graphics program right now, I hope the wording makes sense...

I guess it would still be a type of compression fitting.
Sliding the tube in slightly spreads the conical inside of that last "ring" on the tube side (hence the need for the right size). Which then locks in and prevents the tube from sliding out when pulled (or pushed towards the stern by the friction of the cable).
Press the little "ring" in and pull the tube at the same time to remove the tubing.


And, where do you get those parts?
Since the local plumbing supply specialists were "reluctant to problem solve outside of the box" I ended up in the plumbing section of the red or orange building supplies (box) store. Accessories for ice making units in fridges...

Irrigation system parts might also work?

The brass fitting will get a patina with exposure to salt water, but it doesn't seem to affect the functionality - to me they look exactly the same as what the manufacturers install.
 
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JohnAbercrombie

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RedKite: Thanks! Very useful. In a few(?) months, when 'shopping for fun' is a thing again, I'll look for those fittings locally - good to have on hand for repairs or building a skeg from scratch.
 

mick_allen

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That's so skookum, it might not be bad: when repairing tube problems, put the fitting where the glass ends? I guess it also depends where the glass stops.
 

red kite

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That's so skookum, it might not be bad: when repairing tube problems, put the fitting where the glass ends? I guess it also depends where the glass stops.
While I do some preventative maintenance / optimizing on some skeg systems, generally I go by "if it ain't broke..."

For me most of it depends on how the slider is constructed. You don't want that fitting to interfere with a slider rod (s/s tube that the cable runs through, or PE like in John's picture) that needs space in the sarcophagus (added to my fiberglassing vocabulary...) But, if you are feeding the cable from the blade side, it's also easier to "find" that rod to get the cable in if its end is close to the fitting.
 

mick_allen

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Yes, but it would be silly if the end was not close to the fitting, make sense? For instance shorten the glass sarcophagus [good term!] so it could be?
 

red kite

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Yes, but it would be silly if the end was not close to the fitting, make sense? For instance shorten the glass sarcophagus [good term!] so it could be?
:) There's plenty of stuff in some commercially made kayaks (from a variety of manufacturers) that does not make sense from the repair person's perspective...

I think we are talking about the same thing (I have shortened the sarcophagus in the past, or lengthened or modified it if making the slider working better asked for it) - reading my posts I just seem to have an awkward way of explaining things. ;)
 
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