Decals That Stick to Polyethylene

Water Horse

Water Horse

Joined
Mar 9, 2014
Messages
105
Location
Southern Alberta
I had vinyl decals (my water-horse decal) that I had on the bow of my kayak. When I was out in Tofino this last summer in the saltwater those came off. I was wondering if there is a a good decal material that will adhere to a polyethylene boat?
 
I wonder if it's the flexibility of the decal's material that matters.. Seems like it would really have to be a super flexible material to get into all the tiny cracks in the material or the glue will have no chance of working. I guess how you apply it might have something to do with it too. Maybe a soft rubber or silicone type roller would help really embed the decal onto the texture of the plastic?
 
Those are good thoughts - perhaps a primer like glue might be something to look into. I think I will take this problem to my local sign maker and see what they can suggest.
 
Thanks for that link - I will probably explore that.

I have been in discussions with my local sign guy. ...so far we have determined that the standard vinyl decals will not work without something else. For instance sanding and washing with alcohol does little to increase adhesion. Heat doubles the adhesion (hair dyer) but when adhesion is so poor to begin with doubling that doesn't do that much. ...I am going to test out a primer and see how that goes. It may take a combination of approaches.
 
You might ask your sign guy if he can burn your Water Horse image into a silk screen.
Once you have the silk screen you can experiment with different paints.
A silk screen is a stencil supported by a cloth screen that paint or ink is squeezed thru.

Roy
 
Sounds (reads) good, try to buy a sample -
Your Sign guy might be able to help.
I did not see any info on clean up -- what solvent -- water or other
Maybe I just missed that info.
Maybe they have a material data safety sheet of some kind that would give a clue as to clean up.

Roy
 
Dave,

Thanks for the info - it certainly sounds like toxic stuff even if I don't understand the specs but if it sticks it might be worth exploring further. When you say flamed, do mean with a heat gun or torch? ...and would this work with vinyl or paint or both? What would the flaming do that a hair dryer wouldn't?

...so Dave do you think this paint option is worth pursuing. I have sent a message on to the U.S. rep.

Oh, by the way what does IIRC mean?
Marlo
 
Water Horse said:
When you say flamed, do mean with a heat gun or torch? ...and would this work with vinyl or paint or both? What would the flaming do that a hair dryer wouldn't?
Click to expand...
I'm not Dave (IIRC- if I recall correctly :D ) but the flaming is not simply a heat treatment.

From the OldTown repair page:
http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/support/repair/

SPECIAL NOTE FOR ALL POLYETHYLENE HULLS:
All polyethylene hulls need to be polarized prior to any attempted repair or bonding. No material will permanently bond to polyethylene as it is before polarizing. You must first be sure the area is roughened with sand paper and clean. To polarize you will need a hand-held propane torch. The torch will have a flame about 3 inches long. Inside will be a smaller, brighter blue flame. This smaller flame must contact the hull in the area to be bonded. Simply wave the flame across the hull like you were painting it with a small brush. This process does not involve melting, blackening, or even getting the surface hot. What is important is having the gases given off in the bright blue part of the flame oxidize the surface to be repaired. Do not touch the area with your bare hands after polarizing as oils from your skin will reverse the process.
Click to expand...

There's similar info on the WEST epoxy site where they talk about using G-Flex epoxy on poly.
 
John excerpted, from Old Town: From the OldTown repair page:
http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/support/repair/

Quote:
SPECIAL NOTE FOR ALL POLYETHYLENE HULLS:
All polyethylene hulls need to be polarized prior to any attempted repair or bonding. No material will permanently bond to polyethylene as it is before polarizing. You must first be sure the area is roughened with sand paper and clean. To polarize you will need a hand-held propane torch. The torch will have a flame about 3 inches long. Inside will be a smaller, brighter blue flame. This smaller flame must contact the hull in the area to be bonded. Simply wave the flame across the hull like you were painting it with a small brush. This process does not involve melting, blackening, or even getting the surface hot. What is important is having the gases given off in the bright blue part of the flame oxidize the surface to be repaired. Do not touch the area with your bare hands after polarizing as oils from your skin will reverse the process.

I have read this description carefully every time I have run across it, and it still sounds like witchcraft. BUT, I gather that people who earn a living "welding" PE boat cracks and similar PE wounds have great success, once they get the hang of it. I have never tried it.

My SWAG is that the bright blue, internal part of the flame chemically alters the surface PE molecules to allow them to combine chemically with whatever gets laid on top. However, that part of any hydrocarbon-sourced flame is a REDUCING zone, not an oxidizing zone, so that the PE loses at least some of the oxidation accumulated over time, perhaps regenerating some of the unsaturated terminal groups which got left out in the original polymerization. IOW, the surface resembles what a rotomolded boat has, fresh out of the mold.

Caveat emptor, though, baby: speculative explanations such as this one of mine are cheap tricks, and not unlike what a cheap trick on the street might be ... possibly worthless, yet likely to lead to a memorable experience of the worst kind.
 
Thanks for the information.

I tried a primer that was recommended by my local sign guy and that helped only slightly - the primer ripped off with no less effort than the hair dryer approach (heating up the vinyl).

Here is the message I got from Paintflex:

"Thank you for your interest in PaintFlex.
Yes, PaintFlex will adhere directly and permanently to PE. For greater durability, a clear auto body topcoat has been used.
Unfortunately, PaintFlex currently is only being sold directly to manufacturers. There is no distribution for North America. I will pass your contact info to our distributor once we have one in place."

....so Paintflex looks promising but it doesn't sound like it is immediately available.

I think my next approach is to try the flaming approach. I will keep you posted.
 
JohnAbercrombie said:
I think this is what Dave is talking about:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032386110004647
Click to expand...
Ulp. Maybe. That is a very opaque dissertation. I skimmed it, looking for some nuggets that Water Horse might exploit, but I think I missed them. l suspect this short video may be what he needs. Created for surface prep prior to painting pink flamingos, but the techniques are similar and should work for decal application as well.

https://youtu.be/l-R2lDEocDc
 
Astoriadave said:
JohnAbercrombie said:
I think this is what Dave is talking about:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032386110004647
Click to expand...
Ulp. Maybe. That is a very opaque dissertation. I skimmed it, looking for some nuggets that Water Horse might exploit, but I think I missed them.
Click to expand...
I agree that article was pretty 'academic'. :D
The reason I posted the link that was to reinforce the idea that it is a 'surface activation' chemical process. One of the videos I watched stated (and showed) that the flame treatment was required to warm the surface and 'get the mold release to come out' where it could be removed with alcohol. Mold release may be part of the problem, but the plastic needs that flame treatment as the last step before bonding.
For example, I've seen a recommendation for flame treatment of plastic before bonding a bulkhead in place.
 
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