Discussion - sticking together...

[mick_allen]

I would honestly not second-guess that one.

I'm not 2nd guessing the decision from their point of view. From the text, they thought there was only one variable: both swimming or one going for help. From that aspect, the correct decision was taken no matter what - as at least one survives, and the swimmer at least has a chance of getting found/rescued. Triage reduced to duage.

From another perspective, it is quite possible to drape over a narrow floating object - especially if 2 drape over from opposite sides. It also is quite possible to paddle with another draped over the rear deck with legs trailing in the water - a ski's rear deck will only be an inch or less above the water with a person on it -. And with the knowledge that it is deadly to be left fully immersed for lengths of time, maybe one of these other options would have been attempted if they had known about them. And other variables would come into play such as the localized wave conditions changing as they drifted/paddled.

So I don't second guess their choice. It was clearly the correct one for their total situation. I'm just questioning the re-assessment of the paddler's choice in the cold light of another day by one of the other paddlers. Or in some way can this incident be instructive?

To me, as I suspect with many paddlers (in whitewater, similar situations happen so much that it's just annoying - espec when the paddle is let go as well), the action taken was astounding.
At least, Todd Ellison's death will be less in vain if we preconsider the simple similar situation: 1 person in the water with no boat, no paddle.

 

[rider]

Given the size of the waves, and the tippyness of the boat, there was unfortunately no way for one of them to paddle as the other held on to the boat. The boat would simply capsize immediately when they tried that.

Sounds like they tried...
To me, as an ocean and whitewater paddler, it seems that the margin for error was simply dangerously thin in many ways and as it usually happens in situations that go bad in a big way,it was a pile up of things...
I would like to see feedback from another surf ski paddler. Bob? Anyone?

 

[rider]

Hind sight is very 20/20,but since something could be learned from all this... I wonder if the paddler with the fast tippy ski could have quickly chased down the runaway ski and,if not take it in tow back to the swimmer,at least slow down the drift enough that the swimmer could have caught up to it and re-mounted?

 

[mick_allen]

Possible if he had a tow but not likely present.
And probably too difficult/chancy to remove his leg leash and use that. Don't expect that a bowhandle or bow fitting was present to latch onto.

some surfski rescue info:

http://www.surfski.info/getting-started/tips-other/item/1050-surf-ski-rescue-techniques.html

 

[ShiverMeTimbers]

I'm new to this forum and apologize for posting comments after the thread concluded. This is a subject that sends high-pressure steam shooting out of my ears and I simply couldn't resist weighing in. I think this was a really great discussion, and I was struck by both the high caliber of the discourse and the fact that so many commenters had obviously given the issue a lot of thought. Clearly, we've all encountered this particular demon.

In my experience, whether on land or on water, the ground rules are the same: to leave someone behind is both a very serious safety issue and a gross violation of common human decency. The closely related practice of letting the tired straggler(s) catch up and then immediately sprinting away is not only unsafe, it's also a really nasty and reprehensible thing to do. You want to be free to do as you please? Fine, paddle solo. When you elect to join a group, different rules apply. If it's clear that splitting the group makes sense, fine, just make sure it's safe to do so, and do it before launching. Be clear on the fact that this decision means there will effectively be two separate and independent groups on the water.

Since some folks are hard of hearing, I think it's very important to place this type of bad behavior in its proper context by emphasizing that only unsafe and inconsiderate SOBs behave that way. This must be explained to the entire group before so much as a toe goes in the water. Once the felines get out of the bag, herding them becomes impossible. This approach works because we humans are a very social bunch; it's exceptionally rare for people to engage in behavior that has been clearly defined, in advance, as an inexcusable slap in the face to the entire group.

I really believe that with very few exceptions, this sort of bad behavior occurs because people have simply never thought about it as an issue. They're honestly clueless. Once it's explained and put into context, the light comes on. In over thirty years, I have never seen anyone break the rule after they've heard the sermon.

Moulton Avery

 

[Doug_Lloyd]

Welcome to WCP Moulton!!! :cool

Chime in whenever and where-ever you want! Paddling with others is kind of like being married or partnered up in a committed relationship. You can’t – or shouldn’t – forge ahead on a tangent alone without considering the other person, and the faster you realize it’s not all about you, the better off everyone will be. Nothing "kills" like a selfish attitude. Otherwise stay single – or as you say, paddle solo. And if there was ever culpable homicide, I think leaving a paddler behind must be getting close…

Your point about ignorance is well taken. Unfortunately, some clubs and social paddling networks have allowed the practice of not sticking together or insufficient sweeps for so long that any attempt toward corrective action is seen as an attack on personal choice and freedom and against the spirit of sea kayaking, let alone the context that competitive paddlers find themselves faced with (perhaps unknowingly).

Anyway, my spouse is calling me for help with the dishes…

Doug

 

[mick_allen]

The closely related practice of letting the tired straggler(s) catch up and then immediately sprinting away is not only unsafe, it's also a really nasty and reprehensible thing to do.

to be fair to them, they were on surfskis paddling downwind on waves:

When a surski 'group' does that, various people grab various bumps, wave/s, wavetrains in different manners and have to take differing lines - fragmentation of some kind would be understood from the start - the sea is not uniform. While separation is admittedly unsafe, it was not nasty and reprehensible, but would be fun and exhilarating as they paddle hard to catch and stay on the specific and differing lifts they are riding.

So in that context, I wonder what the prepaddle discussion would be? Buddy paddling, regroups at certain waypoints, geography or times maybe?

 

[VanIslePaddler]

I'm new to this forum and apologize for posting comments after the thread concluded.

The forums never really end!

 

[ShiverMeTimbers]

A paddler on our local Chesapeake Paddlers Association forum called attention to the fact that my remarks could easily be misread as being directed at the tragedy that cost Todd Ellison his life. That was a very good point, and if anyone read my comments that way, I sincerely apologize, because I had no intention of specifically addressing the Mille Lacs tragedy, only the more general issue of group dynamics and behavior. I got so fired up about the general issue that I spaced out and stumbled blindly past the Mille Lacs comments in the thread. I really should have seen the connection, but I didn't.

My oversight was really pretty ironic, because for a couple of years, I've been very vocal about the companion issue of flaming paddlers who share their own mishaps within the paddling community. On one thread in the Sea Kayaker magazine forum, I made the following comment:

Anyone generous and bold enough to publicly share paddling mistakes, mishaps, and accidents has my appreciation and respect. If we castigate those who come forward with enough vigor, we'll soon have no one willing to share this kind of valuable information. The unproductive rain of criticism was particularly noteworthy in the sometimes vitriolic prose that followed Michael Powers' candid account of his error in judgement. It would have been far more useful to read comments that offered a solution or at least discussed the variables that led him to decide that it was sensible to paddle solo on that occasion.

On a thread about the Mille Lacs tragedy, I referred to the original decision to spit the group up as "a classic mistake". It was, and I stand by that comment, but I would never presume to second-guess the later separation, when the escort paddler left to get help. That had to be absolutely gut-wrenching, both at the time and particularly afterwards, and my heart goes out to that paddler, as well as to Todd's family and friends. My comments on his decision were: 

"when the victim's boat was lost, there was no way to get help other than by leaving the victim alone in the water and paddling desperately for shore in very difficult conditions." 

When another paddler made the following comment on the SK forum:

"This incident is tragic and didn't need to happen. What really staggers me is that the escort left this guy out there to die. He may not see it that way, but I can't see it any other. 

I disagreed with his remarks, and responded:

I see your point, but there's only one reason why that guy left his buddy in the water and paddled to shore: He didn't feel like he had any other option for getting help, and he didn't think, in his wildest dreams, that he was leaving him there to die.

Whether he had other options or should have had other options, whether the surfski community is soft on rescue practice etc etc are certainly debatable points, but not his personal decision to seek the fastest route he could envision to get help for his friend. Neither of them saw any other alternative at the time, and they both agreed to the plan.

Again, I apologize for not being more clear in my original remarks and not paying better attention to the entire thread. I certainly don't want any of you mates to mistake me for one of those insensitive SOBs I was writing about...
Moulton Avery

 

[ShiverMeTimbers]

Doug, thank you for the warm welcome.

As you know, it's my view that the "sea kayaking community" has an individual and unique "culture" just as any sport does, and because culture is malleable, I believe that it's possible to "set the bar" for a standard of behavior that is acceptable vs one that's unacceptable. I feel that we are all, collectively, in a position to change or modify aspects of SK behavior, policy etc. In other words, we are the ones who define the culture of our sport. Nothing is ever really set in stone, so if we feel that folks are straying off the path or behaving in ways that are detrimental to either themselves or others, we can take concrete steps to change that behavior.

The best example of this that I'm aware of, involves the practice of wearing wetsuits or drysuits when paddling on cold water. There was a time when people didn't think much about it. Today, in many paddling groups and clubs, paddlers who want to go on cold water outings are required to wear appropriate thermal protection. Folks who don't feel like it can go out on their own or with like-minded friends, but not on officially sanctioned club trips. It's also very unusual to encounter skilled, experienced paddlers who skip the protection. That wasn't always the case.

I find it helpful, in these discussions, to distinguish between those of us who are Sea Kayakers, and those folks who have simply purchased a boat and know little or nothing about skills, safety, seamanship etc. Sea Kayakers have a very strong safety ethic and safety culture, and it's constantly evolving and improving. A lot of safety gear, safety measures, and standards of behavior that Sea Kayakers today view as basic practices were simply unknown back in the day, and not that far back in the day, either.

 

[sushiy]

When another paddler made the following comment on the SK forum:
"This incident is tragic and didn't need to happen. What really staggers me is that the escort left this guy out there to die. He may not see it that way, but I can't see it any other. ....
Moulton Avery

Moulton, I paddle and practice sometimes with this paddler, and just wanted to point his real thought. He has a sharp tongue, and call himself a jark, but he always concerns the safety of other kayakers. What he is really saying is that "You people, get your s*$# straighten and have more real trainig done and have a good judgement. Prepair for the worst. Otherwise you might just have to do what this guy had to do to his dear friend, that is leaving him to die."

And for your first comment about bringing this thread to the light, this safety topics are so important and should be brought back to people's attention over and over again. So thank you for doing just that. This ( leaving someone behind) is a common mistake too many paddlers do without any incident until it happenes.

Setsuko

 

[ShiverMeTimbers]

Thanks, Setsuko. I understand. I've made the same mistake, myself, more times than I care to remember.

 

[ken_vandeburgt]

When another paddler made the following comment on the SK forum:

"This incident is tragic and didn't need to happen. What really staggers me is that the escort left this guy out there to die. He may not see it that way, but I can't see it any other. 

Its interesting to read marine law on this kind of incident. The law basically states that at sea you are legally obliged to provide aid up to the point of which your own safety is jeopardized. The point at which your own safety is jeopardized is given a lot of leeway; being on the sea is a recognized hazard.

This thread started on the discussion of keeping the group together. One of the major reasons for keeping a group together has been cited as safety.

One way of putting it is there exists a social contract that says if I go paddling with you then I will look out for your safety. I think what is not well understood is that there is a limit to that social contract; that being the point at which my own safety is jeopardized.

People need to understand they responsible for the safety of their person and anyone else in their boat; they are captain of their own vessel. When a group goes out together it is as a group of peers unless there is a formal arrangement with a guide or instructor.

When you go onto the sea, a known hazardous place, there is a risk that things will go wrong. There is a point where conditions can get so bad that you may be left to die. I hope that you and I never find ourselves in that situation.

 

[VanIslePaddler]

When a group goes out together it is as a group of peers unless there is a formal arrangement with a guide or instructor.

I think there are circumstances where one would be considered the 'leader' even without a 'Formal' agreement.

For instance: if you are an experienced paddler, and you take a novice friend out paddling, even where no monatary or formal agreement is in place, you may be considered the 'leader' and carry some liability. If the experienced individual leads the novice into water conditions, or location, where the novice would not go alone, and is only there due to being 'lead' by the experienced paddler, the experienced paddler may have a 'duty-to-care'.

I think this is good to remember, and to always act with the best dilagence.

 

[ShiverMeTimbers]

Ken, I agree with the concept that a paddler is ultimately responsible for saving his or her own bacon, and it's certainly true that conditions can quickly deteriorate such that every paddler in the group is at their own personal limit and in no position to render aid to anyone other than themselves. In a sport like ours, an emphasis on personal responsibility is a very good thing. I believe, however, that those situations encompass a very small minority of incidents. The vast majority of problems emerge in conditions in which only a few paddlers, or even one paddler, are at their limits. It's those situations that concern me the most.

Slower paddlers can be slower for a number of reasons. I've seen perfectly capable paddlers lagging behind because they were busy talking or taking pictures. Those are the easy ones; they have the capability to pick up the pace. However, if the slow pace is due to poor physical condition, bad stroke mechanics, apprehension, conditions beyond their comfort & skill level, illness, dehydration, nausea, heat or cold stress, hunger etc etc, it's unreasonable and unrealistic to expect them to keep up. 

As noted earlier, when you choose to paddle with a group, different rules apply, and I think that's where the social contract really comes into play. Also basic human decency & empathy and all the noble human qualities that those words encompass. Granted, it can be frustrating for faster paddlers with higher skills to plod along at what they feel is a snail's pace, but if it's a group with mismatched abilities, that's very likely to happen. Hard as it may be for them, it's a walk in the park compared to the hell a weaker paddler goes through trying to keep up; particularly when the stronger paddlers split the second they catch up. I wouldn't want to be treated that way, and I suspect the same is true for any and all of us. Safety aside, it's a pretty rotten way to treat a fellow paddler.

The danger of a weaker paddler getting into trouble in the rear of the formation is why safety-conscious groups designate someone to run sweep. Imagine capsizing and watching your mates cluelessly recede into the distance while you struggled in the water. It's not a pretty picture, and it is a big safety issue. Whether any of this has legal standing is certainly interesting, but really beside the point. The bottom line is whether one feels that there is a moral obligation to look out for one's mates. I think there is. Big-Time. That's why setting the ground rules and expectations before launch is so important. There's no shortage of safe and decent ways to solve this sort of problem before the boats hit the water.
Moulton Avery

 

[ShiverMeTimbers]

Setsuko, I should probably make it clear that the mistake I've made more times than I care to remember is shoving my size 10 shoe firmly into my own mouth, not leaving a paddler behind...

 

[ken_vandeburgt]

Ken, I agree with the concept that a paddler is ultimately responsible for saving his or her own bacon, and it's certainly true that conditions can quickly deteriorate such that every paddler in the group is at their own personal limit and in no position to render aid to anyone other than themselves. In a sport like ours, an emphasis on personal responsibility is a very good thing. I believe, however, that those situations encompass a very small minority of incidents. The vast majority of problems emerge in conditions in which only a few paddlers, or even one paddler, are at their limits. It's those situations that concern me the most.

I think this thread was started to discuss this level of incidence. Introducing the extreme examples like Mr Ellison is not doing the topic any favors and I'd like to suggest that example is outside of the limits of this discussion.

I think there are circumstances where one would be considered the 'leader' even without a 'Formal' agreement.

For instance: if you are an experienced paddler, and you take a novice friend out paddling, even where no monatary or formal agreement is in place, you may be considered the 'leader' and carry some liability. If the experienced individual leads the novice into water conditions, or location, where the novice would not go alone, and is only there due to being 'lead' by the experienced paddler, the experienced paddler may have a 'duty-to-care'.

I think this is good to remember, and to always act with the best dilagence.
I think there are circumstances where one would be considered the 'leader' even without a 'Formal' agreement.

This kind of legal weasel discussion really bothers me. There is in any group a leader-follower-situation triangle existing. You either paddle alone or you accept that one person will provide leadership in one situation and another may well provide leadership in another. This informality is fine for any unstructured activity such as kayaking.

When you start talking about liability as it pertains to a legal duty to care then I can only run screaming from the room because it discourages people from stepping into voluntary roles of leadership. The major points usually come from someone that doesn't actually know anything about the laws that pertain.

That applies to me as well; I am not a lawyer. However, I have done some study on the subject from a risk management point of view for a club. I have not found any laws regarding liability on the sea other than the marine law example I cited earlier in this thread. In marine law there is no liability for failure to provide aid; only a legal obligation that carries a million dollar fine. As near as I can figure the jurisdication of where marine law begins and ends is the point at which your kayak no longer touches the shore. (Note this is Canadian Marine Act; you'll have to check your own nation's laws if you are not in Canada)

Perhaps we should point that out to people who don't stick with the group; they may find themselves in for a million dollar fine under the marine act if things go wrong and they are no longer in the company of the group they started with.

 

[SheilaP]

When you start talking about liability as it pertains to a legal duty to care then I can only run screaming from the room because it discourages people from stepping into voluntary roles of leadership. The major points usually come from someone that doesn't actually know anything about the laws that pertain.

Interesting point - all the 'liability'concerns. I feel that I am an 'engaged group paddler' and rarely concern myself with legalities. For me, I am more concerned about moral obligations. When I choose to paddle with others, my skill level or not, I believe I have a moral duty to care. Legalities do not seem to concern me if I am meeting moral obligations. Just my throughts. When I go with a group, I stay with the group. If I have an unsatisfactory experience, I can choose something/or someone(s) different for the next paddle. With enough communication prior to the paddle, and during paddles with repeat paddling partners, I have had a lot of great experiences overall!

I am GLAD that this forum continues and that a range or circumstances and concerns and being covered and discussed. :big_thumb

 

[Jurfie]

I feel that I am an 'engaged group paddler' and rarely concern myself with legalities. For me, I am more concerned about moral obligations. When I choose to paddle with others, my skill level or not, I believe I have a moral duty to care. Legalities do not seem to concern me if I am meeting moral obligations. Just my throughts. When I go with a group, I stay with the group. If I have an unsatisfactory experience, I can choose something/or someone(s) different for the next paddle. With enough communication prior to the paddle, and during paddles with repeat paddling partners, I have had a lot of great experiences overall!

:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[lance_randy]

Big groups=more responsibility to others, and less freedom for the individual. As Spock said: "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few." It's why I'm wary of paddling in big groups. The few times I have, it wasn't much fun.