Fast/Fun Kayak Recommendation? Q700x, Rapier 18, 18x Sport, Wind 585

[bengobonk]

Hi All,

I am looking for a new kayak and am wondering if anyone might be able to provide their thoughts on and experiences with the following boats:

QCC Q700x
Valley Rapier 18
Epic 18x Sport
Tahe Marine Wind 585

Me: 29, 6'3, 200 lbs. Intermediate paddler, I suppose. Not enough time on the water in varied conditions to be higher than that, but I am fairly fast and confident in my paddling abilities.

I am coming from a Nimbus Telkwa Sport, which I have paddled for the past 3 years or so. It has been a great boat, but I let it go because:
1. I wanted to move into a kayak that would push me to work on my paddling skills more (hugely stable and it didn't feel very rewarding to paddle hard above a certain speed).
2. The Telkwa Sport was just a bit cramped for my frame (which could have been remedied with some outfitting, but I never bothered).

I was torn for a bit between getting something smaller and playful (Romany etc.) and getting something fast. I settled on fast because:
1. I like to go fast
2. Good for shorter fitness paddles after work
3. Opens up more long-range objectives.
4. It seems like the narrow beams on these boats will still keep me on my toes (more fun) and push me to work on my stability and efficiency. It also seems like they will still be easier to roll than the Telkwa.

I have been combing forums endlessly, but find it hard to evaluate the boats because:
1. The discussions range as far back as the mid-2000's when boat availability and comparison points was likely a bit different.
2. The people commenting have a range of backgrounds (surfski crowd, racers, flatwater paddlers).

My main concerns for each boat (which are listed in the order that I currently have them ranked, 1st being the top of my list):
Q700x: Hatches
Rapier 18: Too tippy? I still want to be able to lay back and take photos comfortably (or wait for friends to catch up!)
18x Sport: Build quality. Hatches. Can it stand up to real touring in the PNW?
Wind 585: Little information out there about this. Perhaps not quite so fast/fun?

I am shopping used and not looking to try a bunch before buying. My philosophy is buy used, paddle it, and if it doesn't work then sell it again and repeat.

Looking forward to any insights that you fellow west coast paddlers might have, thanks a bunch!
- Ben

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

You sold your Telkwa before you got a replacement?? So you don't have a boat now?
The horror!
The combination of 'fast and fun' for workout paddling and 'stand up to real touring' and 'long range objectives' will be tough to find in one boat, I think.
I haven't looked at a 585, only the Tahe Greenland but it seemed a bit delicate to me. Stellar are also in my 'delicate category'.
The Tiderace Pace 17 looks like a good boat, but you won't easily find a used one. Same with the Rockpool Taran.
The original Mariner kayak are even a Mariner II would meet the fast rugged tripping boat criteria. Perhaps a bit hard to find, and lacking 'modern' compartments and hatches. Definitely designed for big powerful paddlers. Should be cheap, too since they are all old now.
A Nordkapp would be tippy enough to keep you alert, and it's a boat with lots of expedition history. No rudder, though.
Perhaps a surfski and a wing paddle for working on technique and fitness, and a more solid high volume boat for tripping?
Or just a 'generic' rudder boat like a CD Solstice and a wing paddle, for now?

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

Or just move to Australia - lots of more modern boats there...

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

I forgot to mention the Seda Glider. Some years ago, I tried on many occasions to keep up with a friend in his Seda Glider. Unloaded, in some winds, the Glider needed extra weight in the bow compartment; those beach stops for a few rocks let me have a bit of a breather.

 

[cougarmeat]

From the description, it sounds like the Glider used the same hull shape as the Seda Swift. Once I was out with a friend who was paddling my Swift and I was in a Mariner Express. Two guys, two kayaks - you understand - the pace got faster and faster. Eventually, I was channeling all the techniques I could muster from a "Performance Forward Stroke" DVD. My friend was working hard but not with any refined technique. It was all I could do to stay even.

A while later I wrote to Matt (Mariner) and asked about that experience - Marinier sold both their boats and Seda out of their Seattle store. Matt said the Seda hull was based on an Olympic racing Shell and the Swift about the 5th fastest boat of its class that he'd paddled.

I came close to getting a Glider but 1) I'd have to pay for an extended garage, 2) I had already imbibed too much, "...you don't need a rudder ..." kook-aid.

 

[CPS]

I have a Rapier 18 and can offer my opinions on it. It's certainly tippy, especially if you're stopped. But it wants to go fast.

I did some tweaking to it so it can hold enough gear to do some touring. It becomes noticeably more sedate with a load of gear. Still tender, but good enough for a quick lap of Gulf Islands and such. I wouldn't want to take it somewhere particularly exposed.

Build quality is solid, perhaps not as light weight as some of the others, but it's a well built boat.

The stock foot pedals were apparently awful, and the seat is a mixed bag. I have a small frame and the seat fits me great, but is apparently horrendous for those with a more full figure. As with everything there's the option to adjust outfitting to suit.

I find rolling it to be a bit of a challenge due to the high deck. It behaves oddly when inverted, but can't really put my finger on why.

 

[AM]

A Tahe 585 was the boat Joe O’Blenis used to finish his around-Vancouver Island record-setting trip. He started in a Greenlander Pro, but I think the skeg fell out so he switched to the 585.

My concern with the Tahe would not be its speed, but its build quality. Check out this thread for an idea of some of the issues.

Cheers,
Andrew

 

[Splonger]

This sounds similar to my quest a few years ago. I had a hankering for something faster than my revered Delta 17, so I tried Point 65 XP18, Zegul Searocket, Stellar 18R and Intrepid, and finally the Epic 18x Sport. Hands down the best for me. Fast with an Epic wing or even a carbon Greenland paddle, lots of room and big dry hatches for camping, and amazing secondary stability for when you make a mistake or get a nasty surprise. I replaced the seat with a custom foam one from Redfish and love it. It has the most accessible convenient day hatch on the market. The carbon footplate allows you to really work hard if you want. I’ll buy another in a minute if this one is stolen or wrecked!

 

[bengobonk]

Amazing, thanks for the comments everyone - it's much appreciated.

Tahe is off the list due to QC concerns. I was already shying away from this option after reading a few similar stories and this solidifies the decision.

Does anyone have any experience with the Q700x? It was at the top of my "fast touring" list, as it seems to have found success in races while still having a good amount of storage capacity. Just a little unsure as I've never seen one in the wild (or any QCC boat for that matter) and can't find many comments online about it aside from the fact that they do OK in FSK races.

Cheers,
Ben

 

[bengobonk]

This sounds similar to my quest a few years ago. I had a hankering for something faster than my revered Delta 17, so I tried Point 65 XP18, Zegul Searocket, Stellar 18R and Intrepid, and finally the Epic 18x Sport. Hands down the best for me. Fast with an Epic wing or even a carbon Greenland paddle, lots of room and big dry hatches for camping, and amazing secondary stability for when you make a mistake or get a nasty surprise. I replaced the seat with a custom foam one from Redfish and love it. It has the most accessible convenient day hatch on the market. The carbon footplate allows you to really work hard if you want. I’ll buy another in a minute if this one is stolen or wrecked!

A strong vote for the 18X - thanks for that!

How about durability? Do you find yourself wanting to baby it? I am fine with taking care of a slightly more delicate boat, but not to the extent where a rough, rocky landing would make me fear serious damage.

 

[bengobonk]

I have a Rapier 18 and can offer my opinions on it. It's certainly tippy, especially if you're stopped. But it wants to go fast.

I did some tweaking to it so it can hold enough gear to do some touring. It becomes noticeably more sedate with a load of gear. Still tender, but good enough for a quick lap of Gulf Islands and such. I wouldn't want to take it somewhere particularly exposed.

Build quality is solid, perhaps not as light weight as some of the others, but it's a well built boat.

The stock foot pedals were apparently awful, and the seat is a mixed bag. I have a small frame and the seat fits me great, but is apparently horrendous for those with a more full figure. As with everything there's the option to adjust outfitting to suit.

I find rolling it to be a bit of a challenge due to the high deck. It behaves oddly when inverted, but can't really put my finger on why.

Thanks for sharing this.

I find the Rapier interesting, but I think that between the tippyness and possible issues with cockpit comfort I am going to put the Rapier into the "must try it before I buy it" category.

 

[bengobonk]

You sold your Telkwa before you got a replacement?? So you don't have a boat now?
The horror!
The combination of 'fast and fun' for workout paddling and 'stand up to real touring' and 'long range objectives' will be tough to find in one boat, I think.
I haven't looked at a 585, only the Tahe Greenland but it seemed a bit delicate to me. Stellar are also in my 'delicate category'.
The Tiderace Pace 17 looks like a good boat, but you won't easily find a used one. Same with the Rockpool Taran.
The original Mariner kayak are even a Mariner II would meet the fast rugged tripping boat criteria. Perhaps a bit hard to find, and lacking 'modern' compartments and hatches. Definitely designed for big powerful paddlers. Should be cheap, too since they are all old now.
A Nordkapp would be tippy enough to keep you alert, and it's a boat with lots of expedition history. No rudder, though.
Perhaps a surfski and a wing paddle for working on technique and fitness, and a more solid high volume boat for tripping?
Or just a 'generic' rudder boat like a CD Solstice and a wing paddle, for now?

I know, I know. The unfortunate reality of a student budget! I still have a tandem that I am able to take out with friends or on my own if necessary (now there's a fitness paddle!).

I think a surfski + touring kayak might be my ideal combination, but just a bit beyond scope at the moment.

Nordkapp - I'll keep that one in mind!

 

[CPS]

Thanks for sharing this.

I find the Rapier interesting, but I think that between the tippyness and possible issues with cockpit comfort I am going to put the Rapier into the "must try it before I buy it" category.

It's not really representative of a stock boat anymore, but you're welcome to take mine for a spin if you'd like. Just shoot me a message.

 

[rider]

Out of this list, I have demoed the Epic and the Rapier. Epic felt very user friendly (comfortably stable, comfortable ergonomics)but maybe not super robust, the Rapier was fast and beautiful but i imagine paddling it empty in real chop would be a bit unnerving or at the least use a bunch of energy that would have gone into forward propulsion in a more stable boat, and the cockpit felt weird.
If you are on a budget and would entertain the idea of a boat with less modern lines...I would have a good look at a Seaward Ascente and Current Designs Solstice GTS, ideally HV versions of both given your size. I have owned a GTS and recently did a couple local races using my friend's Ascente and can vouch for speed of both.

 

[bengobonk]

Out of this list, I have demoed the Epic and the Rapier. Epic felt very user friendly (comfortably stable, comfortable ergonomics)but maybe not super robust, the Rapier was fast and beautiful but i imagine paddling it empty in real chop would be a bit unnerving or at the least use a bunch of energy that would have gone into forward propulsion in a more stable boat, and the cockpit felt weird.
If you are on a budget and would entertain the idea of a boat with less modern lines...I would have a good look at a Seaward Ascente and Current Designs Solstice GTS, ideally HV versions of both given your size. I have owned a GTS and recently did a couple local races using my friend's Ascente and can vouch for speed of both.

Thanks for the suggestions. I sat in an Ascente a few weeks ago (regular size) and was a little bit too cramped for comfort, but the HV might be interesting.

 

[SWriverstone]

Interesting thread. As someone very much like the OP in terms of size (5'11", 212lbs) I've been very happy paddling my plastic Tsunami 165. Like the OP, I also like to paddle fast and far...so I've been pondering whether I should buy a higher-performance composite boat?

For me, the decision comes down mainly to the performance v. cost equation. My Tsunami weighs 65lbs, but it's bombproof durable and I can easily cruise at 4 knots in it (even when loaded)—but it'll only hit 5 knots paddling hard downwind and getting some good long surfs, LOL. It has incredibly high initial and secondary stability and holds a ton of gear. Most importantly for me, it's half the cost of a nice composite boat (less than half, depending on which boat you're looking at).

A nice composite boat would probably cruise at 5 knots...and would weigh maybe 15lbs less. It wouldn't be more comfortable, it wouldn't hold more gear, and it wouldn't be as durable. So is that worth spending more than twice the $$$ on? I don't think so.

Obviously if I were aiming to set speed records or cover 20% more distance in the same amount of time, that might change the equation. But as it is, I'm pretty happy with the Tsunami (at least until I'm so old and weak I can't lift it any more—which thankfully isn't the case now and hopefully not for several more years at least).

I love the look and specs of the Epic though. (As well as many other high-performance composite boats.) And if I could buy one for say, $2500-3,000 I'd probably do it.

 

[AM]

It's awesome that you are happy in your boat. That is a very good place to be, as boat envy is a corrosive and expensive vice! My philosophy is that the best boat is one that you paddle a lot.

I do want to gently challenge a couple of your statements. I speak as someone who has owned a few plastic boats in my time, two of which I still have, including a 25-year old SOT that still gets used every summer. I like plastic boats, but here are my thoughts on what you said above:

1) Holds a ton: side by side comparisons of the same model in plastic vs composite (eg: P&H Delphin vs P&H Aries) will show you that the composite boat packs more. The reason is that the foam bulkhead on the plastic boat eats a lot of space.

2) More durable: yes, if we are talking about impact resistance. No, if we are talking about shape retention (plastic boats will invariably oil-can), bulkhead integrity, and hatch rim integrity. And as for repairability, there is no contest.

3) "Old and weak". That describes most of us on this board ! But it's a funny thing: you are only one random back injury away from joining us in our decrepitude. Here's hoping you stay strong and fit for years to come -- but the fact still remains that anything that makes paddling harder will, over time, cause you to paddle less. Or to state the inverse: anything that makes paddling easier, more comfortable, and more enjoyable will inspire you to hit the water more often, and this becomes more true over time.

4) Price: given that composite boats age so well, there's no reason to spend $ on a new one. Buy a 10-year old boat and you will likely spend a similar amount to what you lay out for a new plastic boat.

Just my $0.02 after years of owning both plastic and composite boats.

Cheers,
Andrew

 

[SWriverstone]

All good points @AM - I wouldn't argue with any of those. Because really, I've just been trying to justify not spending thousands on a new boat! LOL (And my Tsunami is still fine for the moment.) And I agree we all generally get weaker with age—not stronger.

 

[RickMcMinn]

Hello, I have an original Mariner kayak that I rarely paddle any longer. I paddle a Mariner II mostly. The original Mariner would meet the four requirements you mentioned and I would be willing to part with it for $500. It’s in good shape. As with most of the Mariner kayaks, it does not have bulkheads and has a sliding seat which is really effective on this model. I found the Original Mariner a bit tippy empty but pretty stable when loaded for touring. I’ve kept it around for some of the reasons you mentioned: go faster on shorter day paddles. It was my first kayak and indeed it pushed me when it came to learning skills.
I’m in West Seattle. You’re welcome to give it a spin if you get down this way.
Rick

 

[RickMcMinn]

Oops. Sorry about the extra photos. Not sure how that happened