FIRST PADDLING IMPRESSIONS: Mariner Express

As with everything, if the designer is conscientious, a thing is designed for its intended purpose; when that purpose is modified, the design needs to be investigated a little. So consider the additional forces, job-to-do, you'll be putting on the flange. I'm not at all saying it won't work. Just check that the flange's "Call to Duty" isn't excessive. Maybe there's some kind of bracing for metal backing that can be added to support the fiberglass.

I use a foam set in my Express and the change I made was to put a little Velcro® on the bottom so if I move it, it stays where I put it. And it does float - should the cockpit become filled with water. My learning mistake was to initially use too much Velcro. I put a strip of the soft piece on the hull (in case I ever need to sit on it without the foam) and only about an inch on the foam. Any more than that and the "grab" was too strong for the adhesive holding it to the hull and seat.

It's too bad you can't just change the bucket - or cut away the sides - in a way that leaves the rest of the mechanism intact.
 
cougarmeat said:
So consider the additional forces, job-to-do, you'll be putting on the flange.
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Good point. It's an easy thing to beef up the flange but one would feel foolish if pressure from the footpeg bars popped the coaming loose. that said, I think the Mariner coamings are more stoutly attached to the deck than on some other boats. I've fixed a couple. :)
Anecdote: A friend had the coaming on an Atlantis Titan pop loose in ordinary paddling. "The builder was great! He repaired it for only $300!" I am frequently amazed at the magic that keeps some people in business. :)
cougarmeat said:
It's too bad you can't just change the bucket - or cut away the sides - in a way that leaves the rest of the mechanism intact.
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A new wider bucket could be made fairly easily, given some experience with glass work (and mold release!) Pop a mold from the existing seat, make the mold bigger by adding to it, then make a new bigger bucket from the modified mold.

If the paddle could handle the decrease in stability, just adding some padding into the seat could lift the butt 'up and out' a bit and that could help. Or, as suggested, the bucket could be trimmed a bit while still being careful to preserve the sides where the footpeg bars attach.

A paddling style which drives hard into the seat and seat back/backband will quickly show up pressure points, so the seat has gotta change.
 
I agree the seat could be replaced with a wider one...but I'm way past the point of having the time (or motivation) to do any extensive mold-building and glass work like that! LOL (I did a ton of that in my whitewater slalom racing days—including building boats from scratch. I got over it, LOL.)

As for those flanges extending down from the combing, I'm pretty sure they could each support 500lbs, LOL. They are THICK (like they were made with 6 layers of glass) and stiff as concrete. (They're significantly thicker than the sprayskirt rim itself, so I'm pretty sure they were made to hang a seat from.)

In any case, I'm going to try the mod i mentioned earlier first: removing the seat, relocating the aluminum footpeg rails to the flanges, and just go buy another $10 closed-cell gardening pad from Home Depot or Lowe's and throw it in the boat. I'm 99% sure that will work beautifully. I find just sitting on a thick, flat pad on the bottom of the boat to be very comfortable—I don't need anything molded to the shape of my butt, LOL.

And assuming it works, I'll want to get a backband. Ideally I want one with a stiffer plastic band that extends around to either side as opposed to nylon webbing straps; this is what is used in whitewater slalom kayaks, and the stiff plastic band works better because it doesn't flop around when you get in/out, but stays exactly where it needs to be.

The width of that bucket sliding seat is my only "ding" on the build of the Express—because there is just no way that seat could fit half the people who try to paddle it. (14" wide, no matter how tall/strong you are, basically means you are a very "skinny-assed" paddler!) Generally, it's much easier for paddlers to pad out a seat that's too wide; if it's too narrow, you're kinda screwed.

@cougarmeat you mentioned cutting away the sides of the bucket seat; I thought of doing this too—if you could cut two large holes in the sides right where the maximum hip pressure is located, that could really help. But it sounds like a messy, difficult job, and I'm reluctant to try for fear of totally mangling the stock seat. :)
 
SWriverstone said:
In any case, I'm going to try the mod i mentioned earlier first: removing the seat, relocating the aluminum footpeg rails to the flanges, and just go buy another $10 closed-cell gardening pad from Home Depot or Lowe's and throw it in the boat. I'm 99% sure that will work beautifully.
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That seems like a clever solution. It will only take a few minutes to tell if that will work. Just lift those bars up to the coaming flange height and see if they cause interference with your legs. Please report back, as 'inquiring minds want to know" :)
SWriverstone said:
Ideally I want one with a stiffer plastic band that extends around to either side as opposed to nylon webbing straps
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See the IR offerings for commercial solutions. You will still have to figure out a way to 'hang' the backband from the back coaming/deck, to keep it from ending up under your butt when you enter the boat.
seat and backband.jpg

Or for DIY solutions look at the backband like the one that was probably in the Ascente, like the Pygmy backband.
Pygmy backband with added pad.jpeg
Pygmy adjustable backband.JPGPygmy coho backband 1.JPGPygmy coho backband.JPG


SWriverstone said:
because there is just no way that seat could fit half the people who try to paddle it. (14" wide, no matter how tall/strong you are, basically means you are a very "skinny-assed" paddler!)
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You are correct - I just measured with my 'boat calipers' both the bucket seat mold and my hip width. The seat is about 14.5" wide and my hips are about 14" wide.
Matt Broze was about 6' tall and 200# when he designed that bucket seat.

I'm about 5'10 and 170#, my paddling partner was about the same height and a bit more stocky than me. So pretty far from fast marathoner body type. :) But I'm sure that much less than half of the paddlers I've met have bigger hips than me; I'm just not that fit.
Later thought: Most kayaks seem to be designed for a fairly narrow range of body types - generally the 170-200# medium tall male. Very very frequently more 'petite' women have problems finding boats that will fit them and the situation is similar for people who are bigger/taller than the 'target clientele' for the designers. For bigger people there are more choices with the HV 'Freightliner' 'expedition' boats and some of the wider rotomolded 'play' boats. I have paddling friends who use boats like the Telkwa and the larger Current Designs boats for day paddles, though for me they feel like barges to paddle. When we were still renting kayaks-before she bought her Mariner Elan- my wife commented that most boats felt like "trying to paddle the bathtub".
 
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That IR seat looks comfy! But I don't see those on their website? I know Jon and Kara Weld pretty well so could give them a call to ask...

And I agree, larger paddlers don't have a lot of great options. That's a big reason I still love my Wilderness Systems rotomolded Tsunamis—their cockpits are wonderfully roomy for someone my size!
 
Quick update: (I'll post some pics later)...

  • I pulled the seat out of the Express, which was very fast and easy. And the seat runners were indeed filthy—just 10-15 years' worth of accumulated, dust, grime, fir needles, bug carcasses, etc. So with a good cleaning I think the seat would slide much more easily. But I won't be using the sliding seat because it doesn't fit!

  • I then attached the flat aluminum footpeg bars to the backs of the seat hanger flanges. I had hoped to still have adjustability (in case someone shorter than me wants to paddle the boat) but I found out that without cutting 5" or so off each of the footpeg bars, I won't have that adjustability because in their new position (bolted to the back of the flanges) the bars are angled upward and run into the underside of the cockpit, preventing them from being moved farther aft. But for me, it works perfectly (the bars are not in the way of my legs or knees).

  • I then bought another thick, square closed-cell foam kneepad from Home Depot and laid it in the bottom of the boat for a seat (which I already know from my Eddyline Raven works beautifully for this purpose).

  • Then I took another of those pads and cut it up to create a temporary "backstop" that serves the same purpose as a backband (prevents me from sliding backwards up against the rear of the cockpit rim). This whole setup is very comfortable!

  • Next I "deleted" all the ropes from the deck. I realize they had an intended purpose, but while I loved how "nautical" they make the boat look, I wanted them gone. (Too much clutter.)

  • Then I removed and replaced the shock cord from the rear deck.

  • Next I removed the shock cord from the forward deck (and pulled out the map holder—nice idea but I don't need it)...and realized I had no clue how to get the same-size diameter (new) shock cord through the tiny, 1/8" diameter holes drilled in the deck to mount them??? I believe the original cord was 3/16"—bigger than the holes, which is okay because shock cord can be compressed. But getting the ends of the cord through those tiny holes is a challenge. I know the answer is melting and shaping the ends...but even that isn't easy, because the rubber core inside the outer sheath doesn't melt and shape well...so I may have to try to figure out how to pull some of the sheathing alone away from the rubber core (over the rubber), then melt/shape the sheathing into a point to get it through the hole.

    The easier way would be to just make the holes in the deck larger...but I'm a bit paranoid about them leaking. Though I noted that there was no additional waterproofing added to the original cords. They just went through holes in the deck, and I guess those holes don't leak enough to be a problem.
I also plan to add perimeter/safety lines, but that's anot a priority at the moment. As you can see, I want to keep and paddle this boat, so I'm making it work!

Also: I've heard Matt Broze is a big guy (6 foot, 200lbs) but he HAS to have had skinny legs. My legs aren't fat, but they're muscular (I have cycling thighs) and even sitting on the bottom of the boat, I can *barely* get my legs/knees under the deck on either side of the cockpit (where the foam padding is). This boat simply does not have good deck height for someone my size. But it's good enough, and not a big concern.

So in a sense, I'd say the Broze brothers are guilty of the "sin" of not being quite empathetic enough to paddlers who are differently shaped than themselves! (Or they would have made the cockpits of their boats a bit roomier.)
 
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SWriverstone said:
I had no clue how to get the same-size diameter (new) shock cord through the tiny, 1/8" diameter holes drilled in the deck to mount them???
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From the FAQ at marinerkayaks.com:

I need to replace the chart bungies on one of your kayaks but how do I get the new shock cord through those tiny holes in the deck?
Start with a suitable size shock cord. We have been using 3/16" natural rubber shock cord from New Zealand (because it recovers its length better after being stretched and lasts longer than synthetics). It takes about six feet of shock cord. For the present hole size you want to use 3/16" (6mm) shock cord. You could use 1/4" (8mm) but you may have to make the holes a bit larger to do so. Just a bit larger now though! This needs to be a very tight fit not to leak.
Here is how to replace the shock cord. Cut the end of the cord with a fresh cut. Next peel the fabric sheath back until you have exposed about 1/2" of bare rubber strands. Once you get the sheath peeled back enough to expose a little of the rubber try to stretch the rubber in order to more easily draw back the sheath further. Trim off the exposed rubber (try to make the rubber bundle taper a little like a blunt pencil point when you trim it). Slide the sheath back into its original position and melt the tip of the tit you formed with a flame. The melted tip needs to be small enough to easily fit through the deck hole but big enough to get a good grip on with a pair of pliers. Tie a figure eight knot in the other end of the cord and trim and seal that end of the sheath from fraying with a flame. Next push the tit through the hole in the deck from the inside starting with one of the furthest forward holes. Grab the end of the cord's narrow tip with the pair of pliers (the blunt end of slip-joint pliers work well). While holding the pliers pointed at the deck and tightly griping the melted shock cord tip stretch the shock cord between your hand inside the hull and the pliers outside the hull until you have narrowed the cord enough that you can pull the shock cord through the hole. It may take a little wiggling to get the first wider spot through (which is why you cut the rubber to a little point to help out). If you have done all this and you still can't get the shock cord to go through the hole then the shock cord is likely too big for the holes and either you will need narrower shock cord or make one of the holes one drill size bigger and try it again. Repeat as necessary. But remember, if you don't have a very tight fit when the shock cord is relaxed then you might find some drips coming in later. Maybe not a big deal, but we should strive for perfection. Before making any of the other holes larger you might want to test the first fit for leaks with a garden hose or other source of water. Thread the other five holes in the same pattern as the old shock cord and tie another figure eight knot in the tit end, cut the excess off, and melt the sheath to keep it from fraying. The shock cord should just have the slack removed to fit right but not be left under tension. If left under tension for some time the rubber will relax to the point it is not under tension any longer and will lose some of its resilience in the process. Also, too much tension with heavier shock cord over a long period could possibly distort your deck some. If the shock cord stretches out in use (they all do eventually but some do so much sooner than others--which is why we were using natural rubber shock cord) you can easily remove the slack with this system by holding the cord from each side and stretching it to move it to the desired position (that's no slack and no tension). Now put the inside hand against the deck and hold that spot so you will know where to tie the figure eight knot. Next stretch the shock cord again to give yourself some slack to tie the figure eight knot, trim and melt the end, and then stretch the cord again to easily move the knot into position just below the deck.
 
BTW, Matt wasn't too hep on the metric conversions in that FAQ.
3/16" is just under 5mm, and that's the size you need. Shock cord listed as 6mm is generally 1/4" and IMO is too big for the deck bungees on the Mariner.
 
I had the same issues with the rigging on my Coaster.
I added pad eyes to the front and kept the same basic pattern of bungees though I did beef them up to 3/8. Drilling the extra holes was a little terrifying... Boat is a lot drier now as water had a tendency to drip through the original bungee holes.
I also put bungees on the back for holding things like paddles and doing paddle float rescues.
Works for me.
 

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You're a lifesaver @JohnAbercrombie! It never occurred to me that the Mariner FAQ would have such detail on how to replace those cords. That said...I'm kinda liking Tangler's approach of adding padeyes, LOL. That makes the process a LOT easier in the future (though admittedly less clean and beautiful). And I get why drilling extra holes is terrifying, LOL. Generally speaking, when installing padeyes, do you waterproof them? If so, how? Rubber washers? Or adding a bit of silicone caulk? (Or both?)

And yes, I figured out that 3/16" was what the original cord diameter was and ordered some...though I honestly am happier using 1/4" wherever possible—it lasts longer and I think holds things better...another reason to use Tangler's padeye approach.
 
SWriverstone said:
Generally speaking, when installing padeyes, do you waterproof them? If so, how?
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They really don't need anything. I put a dab of Lexel on the flat SS washer before I slip it on to the screw - it helps to hold it in place as I spin on the Nylock nut.
PLEASE don't put silicone anywhere on your boat! It's a nightmare for future maintenance.

When you hear the 'tick/clack' of your paddle hitting that deck padeye, you will appreciate the Mariner through deck shock cord system. :) BTW, I've never found leakage through those 'holes in the deck' that hold the shock cords, if the shock cord is in good condition and nobody has enlarged the holes in the deck. I get more water in the boat off my feet and through the sprayskirt.
Once you've threaded the deck shock cord once, learning the technique, it's very quick to do it the next time.
 
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IMO, perimeter deck lines on both the front and rear decks are an important - the most important- part of deck rigging.

Even if you feel that your own skills are good enough that you will never have to grab your boat while swimming, you may want to rescue somebody else one day.
I also suggest adding end toggles / handles that hang down towards the water several inches, like the NDK/SKUK style. It makes a big difference if you are trying to 'pick up' a swimmer.
 
IMO, perimeter deck lines on both the front and rear decks are an important - the most important- part of deck rigging.
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The thing that surprises me about a lot of permieter lines is how skinny they are. Many boats use line that is no more than 1/8" (3-4mm) diameter...(including my Eddyline Raven)...and every time I see that, I imagine being in the water with my hands bleeding from having a death grip on such tiny rope...

I think permieter line should at a bare minimum be 1/4" to 3/8" (6-8mm)...but then I've never actually been clinging for life to one of those ropes in open waters, so maybe the skinny line isn't that bad?
 
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