MMSI numbers --- only for large vessels or kayakers also?

[cyberhun]

Re: MMSI numbers --- only for large vessels or kayakers also

Has anybody applied for an MMSI number as a canoeist or kayaker and gotten one?

We are going to find out. I picked up a new radio last weekend and spent some time yesterday with CG in Vancouver.
They said fill in the MMSI application, as well as I was able, and send it in. I did that today so now comes the waiting part.
I'll let you all know of the outcome.
FYI I'll not be using GPS so it will have to be DF'ing of the radio signal, but this didn't seem to bother the CG person I spoke to.

Hi Gord --- what kind of radio will you be using? If it doesn't have integrated DSC/sel-call, I don't think having an MMSI won't do you much good --- this limits you to the overpriced Uniden model or the Yaesu model (but the Yaesu model requires the HT to be in the charging cradle to get current updates from the GPS).
How does having an MMSI help with the DF'ing? Can't the Coasties DF an ordinary, non-DSC signal?
Maybe there's something I'm missing here --- I'd sure be interested in the details of your tactics.

 

[GordB]

Re: MMSI numbers --- only for large vessels or kayakers also

Hi Gord --- what kind of radio will you be using? If it doesn't have integrated DSC/sel-call, I don't think having an MMSI won't do you much good --- this limits you to the overpriced Uniden model or the Yaesu model (but the Yaesu model requires the HT to be in the charging cradle to get current updates from the GPS).
How does having an MMSI help with the DF'ing? Can't the Coasties DF an ordinary, non-DSC signal?
Maybe there's something I'm missing here --- I'd sure be interested in the details of your tactics.

I ended up with the Std Horizon HX471S. I've been eyeballing that one for a while now.
By itself having an mmsi number and activating the DSC/distress button won't help the DF'ing. What it will do is send out a signal telling the CG that it is me and a kayak they are looking for. They will still will have no idea where I am as there is no GPS info. They will have to triangulate my position from the radio signal.
My float plan will be filed with my competent third party listing particulars. CG can then call them to help narrow down the search fairly quickly. This will most likely be done in conjunction with the triangulation of the signal.
The whole idea for me at least, is that if I should ever get into trouble I want to make as much noise and set off as may bells as I can. I'll blast out info on 16 as well. Yee ole squeeky wheel.

 

[cyberhun]

Got'cha. That makes sense. I've sent an email to the Standard Horizon (Yaesu to us hams) people about jury-rigging an NMEA-protocol GPS unit directly to the rig without the cradle, but I suspect they will lean towards covering their you-know-whats and say they don't know about that or what-have-you. How difficult could such a jury-rig be, given that that the standard GPS connection is a two-line connection?
Also, I wonder if there is a way to manually input Lat/Long into the radio without a GPS?
Good for you, let's see how it pans out.
I will keep the thread posted upon receipt of any respone from Yaesu (aka Standard Horizon).

73, VA7FAB
Tom

 

[cyberhun]

HI Tom,

Anyone who has a DSC capable radio can and should have an MMSI issued.

Information on obtaining the MMSI can be found in this document:

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet ... 1032e.html

Let me know if you have any other questions.

regards

Gary



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: XNCR, ATN-ALN [mailto:ATN-ALN@DFO-MPO.GC.CA]
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:56 AM
To: cyberhun@shaw.ca
Cc: Lombardi, Nadia: DGRB
Subject: RE: question, can a kayaker get an MMSI?


Good Morning;

Thank you for contacting the Canadian Coast Guard, National Headquarters.

MMSI registration falls under the mandate of Industry Canada. I have redirected your enquiry accordingly. Please standby for response.

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/smt ... 1032e.html



_______________________________
Thanks,

Ben Hudgin
Leader, Communications and Internet /
Chef, Communications et Internet
Canadian Coast Guard / Garde côtière canadienne
200 (rue) Kent Street, Station 5N165
Ottawa, (Ontario) K1A 0E6
(613) 990.3083
Fax: (613) 998.8428
:: hudginb@dfo-mpo.gc.ca

http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/atn-aln




-----Original Message-----
From: tom h [mailto:cyberhun@shaw.ca]
Sent: April 13, 2007 3:39 PM
To: XNCR, ATN-ALN
Subject: RE:question, can a kayaker get an MMSI?

Hi Coasties

Can a kayaker get an MMSI issued to him, or are they only for large vessels?


Tom

 

[cyberhun]

2nd response from Yaesu --- it seems they're either being evasive or they didn't really read the letter.
----------------------
Tom,

When using the distress function of your radio, it put out the lat and long
that the GPS unit is fixed on at the time of the signal. For a handheld
radio to be able to do the same, the radio would need to be able to receive
a location fix (in other words be a GPS in its self). There haven't been
any talks of creating a handheld radio that would be able to do this. It
would be far too expensive and it would make the radio to large physically.

Best Regards,
Raul Hernandez
----------------------
So, I sent another email to Raul-the-yaesu-rep.:
----------------------
Hi Raul

Yes but you seem to be missing the point --- why not enable the HX600S to be connected a small, portable, handheld gps, continuously without the cradle (it's a two line connection!) so that it CAN get a GPS fix at the time the distress signal needs to be sent? Thats what my question is. Then, small craft with no electrical systems, like mine (a kayak), could use DSC/selcall.

73, VA7FAB
Tom

PS Uniden makes an gps integrated handheld marine DSC/selcall radio, and its not 'too large'. It's problem is shoddy construction and too high a price.
--------------------------

 

[cyberhun]

Tom,

I will forward your messages to my Product Manager for his review.

Raul Hernandez
Product Support

 

[cyberhun]

Tom

I am happy to be of assistance, unfortunately my DSC expertise is somewhat more limited then my EPIRB's.
There is no policy to exclude small vessels from DSC protocols, but as you suspected, it was more of an oversight. DSC protocols were established about 15 years ago by the International Maritime Organization (IMO) in collaboration with the International Telecommunication Union (ITU). The original intent was to improve the safety of seafarers by forcing vessels to meet minimum emergency alerting standards. These rules apply only to vessels that are both over 360 tons and engaged in international trade. IMO has no regulating authorities and isn't involved in any manners with pleasure crafts. As with most of the IMO rules, industrial countries often extend them to their domestic commercial fleet. The new rules included both DSC and EPIRB, but also other alternative means of alerting that never reached the small crafts community simply because they would be too impractical. Neither IMO and ITU on the international scene, nor Transport Canada and Industry Canada on the domestic scene had planned that DSC would reach the small crafts, let alone in such a short timeframe.

My suggestion would be to seek information from Industry Canada for available or upcoming technology on VHF DSC. They are the approval authority for Canadian communication equipment.

Having been involved in maritime Search And Rescue for 20 years, I am very partial to 406 EPRIBs when it comes to an emergency. However, EPRIBs do not offer that 2 way communication that could help resolve a situation before it gets to that point. The other point that I hadn't insisted on in my previous communication is the requirement to properly register a 406 EPIRB. Suppliers are not all equal, and it is important for the consumer to insist that EPIRB purchased for use in Canada be given a Canadian coding. EPIRB signals will be detected almost anywhere on the globe, but the response from emergency authorities varies significantly based on both location and country of registration. Many low cost EPRIB built in the US can be coded with either US or Canada identification.

Joanne Clouâtre

Agente Principale
Surveillance des programmes et des plans SAR maritimes
Garde côtière canadienne

Senior Program Monitoring and
Maritime SAR Plans Officer
Canadian Coast Guard

Tel (613)993-6839
Fax (613)-996-8902
email: clouatrej@dfo-mpo.gc.ca


-----Original Message-----
From: tom h [mailto:cyberhun@shaw.ca]
Sent: 20 avril 2007 22:37
To: Clouatre, Joanne
Subject: Re: FW: mmsi number for a kayak

Hello Clouatre, Joanne,

Thankyou for that very usefull information.
I understand you probably are not in a position to recommend a particular brand of emergency radio, and I'm not asking you to do that, but I would very much like to obtain your opinion concerning hand-held, DSC/(digital)selective-calling-capable, marine VHF radios.
I am a kayaker who wants to avail himself of a DSC-capable, marine VHF radio. Due to the nature of my vessel, a kayak, it has no built-in electrical system and thus the only option for me is a hand-held rig. Yaesu offers a DSC-capable hand-held, but for it to be connected to a GPS, it has to be in a cradle. The assumption I'm making about this is that there is a deliberate policy of limiting DSC to vessels large enough to have a built-in power supply. Furthermore, when I look in annex "E" and try to find "kayak", or "vessel under oars", there is no MMSI code for such vessels. It's like the designers of the DSC protocol deliberately excluded vessels too small to have built-in power supplies - perhaps they did not foresee hand-held radios/GPS and assumed only larger vessels with electrical systems and fixed-mount radios would ever be in need of DSC.
Uniden makes a hand-held marine VHF rig that is capable of DSC, and has an integrated GPS, but it is vastly overpriced and not very robust, with the main complaint being that the antenna falls off at the slightest impact.
I hope sooner or later, there'll be a handheld, DSC-capable radio that either has integrated GPS or has the ability to connect to a handheld GPS with a small cable, but only if there isn't a deliberate policy of limiting DSC to larger vessels.
My question to you is --- is there a deliberate policy of excluding small vessels like kayaks from the DSC protocol? Also, should I forget about handheld DSC rigs for now and get a 406 epirb? I really can't afford a 406 epirb but if handheld DSC is not a mature technology, or is not intended for kayaks , I suppose I'll have no choice. I would appreciate any comment you may have regarding handheld DSC radios for kayakers.

Regards,
Tom

 

[jurgenk]

Tom, thanks for all the effort that you have gone to here and for posting the results. I have been interested in a lot of what you are discussing and it is enlightening to see CG's response to these issues. Personally, until the technology changes, if I was planning to do something tremendously remote (especially solo) I would purchase a 406 EPIRB and a quality, truly waterproof VHF handheld to cover as many options as possible (this is of course in the castle-in-the-sky community wherein money grows on trees that have been positively impacted by climate change).

Brad

 

[cyberhun]

Re: MMSI numbers --- only for large vessels or kayakers also

Hi Gord --- what kind of radio will you be using? If it doesn't have integrated DSC/sel-call, I don't think having an MMSI won't do you much good --- this limits you to the overpriced Uniden model or the Yaesu model (but the Yaesu model requires the HT to be in the charging cradle to get current updates from the GPS).
How does having an MMSI help with the DF'ing? Can't the Coasties DF an ordinary, non-DSC signal?
Maybe there's something I'm missing here --- I'd sure be interested in the details of your tactics.

I ended up with the Std Horizon HX471S. I've been eyeballing that one for a while now.
By itself having an mmsi number and activating the DSC/distress button won't help the DF'ing. What it will do is send out a signal telling the CG that it is me and a kayak they are looking for. They will still will have no idea where I am as there is no GPS info. They will have to triangulate my position from the radio signal.
My float plan will be filed with my competent third party listing particulars. CG can then call them to help narrow down the search fairly quickly. This will most likely be done in conjunction with the triangulation of the signal.
The whole idea for me at least, is that if I should ever get into trouble I want to make as much noise and set off as may bells as I can. I'll blast out info on 16 as well. Yee ole squeeky wheel.

Gord, when you look at the contact-points on the HX600S and inside the cradle, is it clear which are which? For instance, there'll be two contacts for charging the battery pack (a positive and a negative), and since the only other function performed by the cradle (I think) is to connect the GPS, one might assume that there would be another two (and only two) contact-points --- the standard interface for a GPS is a simple, two-wire connection.

Too bad there's no way to make a 'test' DSC/MMSI distress call, though.

Also, I dnloaded the manual for the HX600S and can't see any way to manually enter Lat/Long without the GPS - do you think it has that capability?

Yaesu still hasn't answered my question about supplying an accessory device like a mini-cradle, or just some kind of cable to allow connecting a handheld GPS directly to the HX600S sans charging cradle. You'd think they would --- I bet there's a lot of kayakers who already have a GPS and would jump at the chance to buy a handheld marine VHF that they could connect their GPS to for GPS-enhanced DSC capability. If Yaesu (aka Standard Horizons) doesn't come out with one, somebody else will --- you watch.

 

[GordB]

Re: MMSI numbers --- only for large vessels or kayakers also

Gord, when you look at the contact-points on the HX600S and inside the cradle, is it clear which are which? For instance, there'll be two contacts for charging the battery pack (a positive and a negative), and since the only other function performed by the cradle (I think) is to connect the GPS, one might assume that there would be another two (and only two) contact-points --- the standard interface for a GPS is a simple, two-wire connection.

I have the radio ( hx471s) packed away right now off on a trip tomorrow, though I would hazard a guess that they have the same hook-ups. Looking at the cradle there are two contact points at the front that the GPS will tie into and transfer data to the radio. I haven't seen a way to manually enter Lat/Long info to the radio. I didn't see anything in the manual ( it's a little sparse ) indicating that it could be done. So from that I think it's just a data stream that is captured from the GPS automagically.

I just peeled back a hard plastic covering on the bottom of the cradle. There are indeed 2 wires under that for the GPS hookup. But how do you keep everything dry. The cradle is definitely not designed for use in a wet environment.

I'm still waiting for the results to my MMSI application. Though the person I spoke to said these things are on a low priority due to office changes that are happening right now.

 

[cyberhun]

Re: MMSI numbers --- only for large vessels or kayakers also

I'm still waiting for the results to my MMSI application. Though the person I spoke to said these things are on a low priority due to office changes that are happening right now.

Oops, HX471S is what I meant, not HX600S.

Presumably, to connect a small, handheld GPS to the HX471S without the cradle would simply require fabricating something that would form an electrical connection between the two wires emerging from the GPS and those two contact-points on the exterior surface of the HX471S --- probably.

I wonder if the HX471S gives any indication that it's connected to the GPS and getting valid updates? I'll have to get one myself and see.

In any case, the HX471S seems like a decent, robust handheld. It's water proof to some degree, and also has FRS and MURS --- I think you made a good choice. Even without input from a GPS, you're still much further ahead with DSC because all you have to do is push a button to send a distress signal that will inform SAR as to what type vessel they're looking for.

Yes, please do keep me posted as to your MMSI number application.

 

[Bazzer]

I have the Uniden Mystic which has a DSC feature. Not only that but it has a GPS built in. So when you make a emergency call with DSC the lat and long is automatically sent to a receiving DSC station.

First of all you can't make a DSC call without getting a MMSI number. When you register for one you give personal contact information etc.

DSC featured VHF's will also receive DCS calls as well, this will let you relay a distress call if the sending vessel is out of range of a coast DSC station, ie Coastguard, but you might be. All very useful.
The problem is that not all Shore Stations are DSC equipped yet. The US Coast guard is taking their sweet time about it!

The Uniden Mystic is a great unit that has a Magellan GPS as well. The problem being is that I have heard that it is being discontinued. I imagine that sales were not all that good in the USA since DSC is not fully in service.

Barry

 

[Tongo-Rad]

For paddlers in Canada, here's some related and current information for kayakers looking to register a handheld VHF transceiver with DSC (digital selective calling).

In Canada, an MMSI number is used to identify vessels and is programmed to the radio that stays on the boat, i.e. a licensed MMSI requires a radio that is mounted on the vessel. For paddlers with a handheld VHF with DSC, once you have your marine Radio Operator Certificate (ROC-M) you'd want to get an MI number instead. These numbers are assigned to handheld radios and are most often used in kayaks, canoes, etc. MI numbers are assigned to individuals or companies. I'm not sure if the MI classification applies to other countries.

To obtain an MI, here's the form link but given that federal webpages often move, you can instead do a web search for "CPC-2-3-07 - Obtaining Identities in the Maritime Mobile Service" and go to "Form I - Hand-held radios".

I recently registered my Standard Horizon HX890 and the MI number came back within 2 business days. I'd be using this with a few different kayaks and no vessel name was needed to be declared.

 

[cougarmeat]

Seems to me, this DSC could be a feature or a bug. I want the CG to find ME, not necessarily my kayak. Hopefully they will be in the same place. But if the DSC triggers a search for my registered vessel, that may take the focus off the true target - me.

We already have TheSpot, various InReach devices, and other PLB’s. And my use for a GPS goes beyond a “Here I am.” rescue.

Also, with my “belt and suspenders” attitude, I don’t like to double up purposes. If I’ve using a GPS for navigation, I prefer to mange that battery juice. If I’m using my Marine Radio to display general GPS information for in-route planning, that is depleting the Marine Radio battery which might become an issue in an emergency.

In the ham radio world, the most complicated connection was using a Repeater to extend VHF/UHF coverage. Now there are all kinds of “digital” protocols. If you don’t have the right radio for your area, you are out of luck.

I don’t see how the built-in DSC technology provides anything new. And again, with the information sent, the CG could be looking for a boat, not a person. It might eliminate one device (PLB), but again, I’m not sure that’s feature when the unit has limited (battery) hours of operation.

 

[Tongo-Rad]

@cougarmeat , sounds like you’re sorted with TheSpot and PLBs in terms of being located.

You might’ve been thinking of MMSI when you mentioned the Coast Guard looking for your vessel and not you. To clarify, unlike the MMSI, the MI (Maritime Identity) by nature is associated with a paddler using a handheld VHF DSC radio. This tells the CG that the paddler might not necessarily be with their kayak, canoe, etc.

When any VHF DSC uses the Mayday button to call for help the digital signal on channel 70 will identify the person registered to that radio and their vessel type, while a built in GPS is designed to continually send exact positioning via satellite for a rescue situation. The CG would also have access to a registered paddler’s home address and emergency contact from the MI. The GPS isn’t meant to replace a dedicated plotting GPS like a Garmin.

Of my two radios, a Uniden MHS75 (non DSC) and a Standard Horizon HX890 (DSC), their battery times are listed as 12 hours and 11 hours respectively. My partner and I have used both on a 5 day trip and they’ve lasted on a single charge with typical use (crossings, poor visibility, ferry traffic, etc) but we also have a powerbank and solar charger as backup.

Here's a few links to find out more about DSC:

1. Digital Selective Calling (DSC) in Canada
2. Understanding DSC and MMSI
3. Transport Canada - Marine transportation FAQs

 

[cougarmeat]

Tongo-Rad, thank you for the clarifications. Yes, I was mistaking the MMSI for MI. I reread your earlier post and see you described the distinction there. If I’m going to make a crossing or spend a lot of time “in the open”, I modify my user profile (Spot or InReach) to identify the kayak I’ll be paddling. Most important is having some kind of SOS/S&R device. So many times, reading Deep Trouble (Vol 1 or 2) and issues people have xc skiing, snowmobiling, mountaineering, etc. the story could have ended differently if the person only had a way to contact someone an let them know where they were.

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

Most important is having some kind of SOS/S&R device.

Off-topic:
It would be interesting to have a chart showing the 'coverage areas' for CoastGuard radio where a swimmer using a handheld could reasonably expect to contact the GC using VHF voice and/or DSC.
There's not always another (larger) vessel around, keeping watch on Ch 16 to do a relay to the CG. I don't know how popular DSC radios are with the 'bigger boat' community nowadays.
IF there's somebody listening, VHF is the fastest and most direct way to get help. With the satellite systems, there may be a delay, but the message will get out to the rescue services.

 

[Tongo-Rad]

Off-topic:
It would be interesting to have a chart showing the 'coverage areas' for CoastGuard radio where a swimmer using a handheld could reasonably expect to contact the GC using VHF voice and/or DSC.

This might help:

More Canadian maps: https://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/publications/mcts-sctm/ramn-arnm/part4-eng.html
U.S. maps: https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=mtNds

For a VHF, the range depends on the power (watts) used plus the atmospheric conditions but my understanding is a 6 watt capable handheld can reach to 20nm or line of sight. The curvature of the earth prevents VHF from going beyond that since the signal travels in a straight line, so VHF isn't always a viable option for emergencies. DSC overcomes this distance and other topographical issues like high canyon walls, for example, to at least let someone know a paddler's position, like a PLB.

GMDSS (Global Maritime Distress and Safety System) is the digital system for DSC and in Canada since 2003 GMDSS equipment is mandatory on "passenger carrying, non-pleasure crafts more than 8 meters in length", and voluntary for anything shorter. All VHF-DSC vessels are required to continually monitor emergency VHF channel 70 for digital alerts.

Hopefully none of us find ourselves in emergency situations but at least with the right equipment including the ones you mentioned @cougarmeat , there's more options for someone to be found!

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

Thanks, Tongo.
I think that chart might be a bit optimistic for inland areas. When I was up the west coast in my sailboat - VHF antenna at the top of a 45 foot mast- there were spots where I couldn't get WX on the VHF. So it's good to know that DSC signals are more intelligible, farther away.

 

[Tiger Shark]

Not sure if it was mentioned in all of the discussion above, but in Canada an MMSI number is for a radio attached to a vessel. Where your vessel is registered with all the rest of your info. An MI number is just attached to a VHF portable radio, with no vessel number required. I have mine.