Opinion: In the skegs v. rudder debate, rudders win for distance

Paul used similar pedals to mine except his hinges were at the bottom of the pedal instead of level with the ankle.
Grahame Sisson of Sisson Kayaks designed Paul's ones. He also didn't have the easy adjustment of pedals and rudder lines that Don Currie showed us.
I designed my own pedals and used Don's rudder line rigging method on my later kayaks.

No pedals shown but the story of the New Zealand Nordkapp including a picture with Paul in it -
www.sissonkayaks.co.nz

Nordkapp Sea Kayak - Sisson Kayaks

December 2019. Nordkapp production continues in Winton. Email Rikki Griffin – rikki@nautiquekayaks.co.nz – find out more. The Inuit tribes lived in areas of widely differing land forms and prevailing sea MORE »
www.sissonkayaks.co.nz
Note the picture is late 1980s so Paul is a bit greyer than that now.

There are no sea kayak rudder pedals shown on Sisson's website.
 
Just thought I'd add a followup to this thread (OP here). I've continued paddling my (rudderless) Tempest 170, and at the risk of allowing everyone to say "I told you so" (LOL) I'm starting to like it more, and also am better able to paddle it straight with less effort.
But I should add that I don't think this is "proof" of boats with skegs being "better," more just a case of our supreme adaptability as humans. I'm just getting more familiar with how the Tempest handles and therefore am more easily able to compensate for any bow drift (even slightly) to keep it tracking straight.

And while I'm liking the Tempest more, I still believe that a boat with a rudder is more efficient (because all your energy can go toward paddling forward with none being expended on corrections or leans). And I can totally see how—over time—the corrections and leans become so second-nature (or subconscious) that you don't feel like you're using any more energy...but you are. :) (The reports from expedition kayakers support this—the ones who said they paddled farther in a given time when using a rudder.)

Again, I truly don't mean to make it into a competition—rudders and skegs are apples and oranges. :)

I'll also add: I've been doing a lot of experimenting with the skeg: both using it or not using it in differing conditions and with the wind from different directions...and also at different positions (1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and fully deployed). While I'm liking the boat more and more, I'm not finding it true at all that you don't need the skeg paddling straight upwind or downwind. On the contrary, I find using the skeg in these two conditions helps a LOT: paddling upwind, the boat doesn't track flawlessly on its own without the skeg; you still have to make corrections and use leans...and this uses energy that you don't want to expend while also paddling into a strong headwind. Full skeg allows you to put 100% of your energy into making good headway against the wind.

And paddling downwind (at least on the large lake where I paddle weekly) means paddling in 2-3' waves (following seas), and without any skeg, any kayak will tend to turn into the trough on surfs. Again, the boat won't track flawlessly by itself in these conditions.

So i'm finding the only times that are ideal for not using the skeg at all are in calm conditions. Pretty much every other time, I benefit from the skeg (often fully deployed). And maybe this is just a holdover from my years of paddling a boat with a rudder?
 
Last edited:
SWriverstone said:
So i'm finding the only times that are ideal for not using the skeg at all are in calm conditions. Pretty much every other time, I benefit from the skeg
Click to expand...
This is my experience as well, but I usually forget all about the skeg until I'm tired and frustrated trying to keep the boat straight in the conditions where dropping it would help. I guess I'm going SEAnile as I get older... :wink:
 
I used to wonder why my friends didn't use the rudders on their boats more. At first I put it down to the "good paddlers don't use rudders, blah, blah" stuff but more lately I've realized that -since most boats have the (@#$#!!) sliding rudder pedal setup - paddlers immediately lose the secure leg 'anchor' for effective paddling once they move the rudder out of its slot in the deck. So it's a trade-off in terms of efficient forward motion. Unfortunately the majority of those 'west coast boats' also have very poor rudder hold-down arrangements. So when conditions get more 'extreme' and the rudders are put into action, they are usually trailing behind the boat, mostly out of the water.
I try to minimize the number of times I bang my head against the wall, but the dents are showing ... :)
 
JohnAbercrombie said:
I used to wonder why my friends didn't use the rudders on their boats more. At first I put it down to the "good paddlers don't use rudders, blah, blah" stuff but more lately I've realized that -since most boats have the (@#$#!!) sliding rudder pedal setup - paddlers immediately lose the secure leg 'anchor' for effective paddling once they move the rudder out of its slot in the deck. So it's a trade-off in terms of efficient forward motion. Unfortunately the majority of those 'west coast boats' also have very poor rudder hold-down arrangements. So when conditions get more 'extreme' and the rudders are put into action, they are usually trailing behind the boat, mostly out of the water.
I try to minimize the number of times I bang my head against the wall, but the dents are showing ... :)
Click to expand...
So my two cents worth (I'm only charging what it's worth:)

I like my skeg boat (Valley Etain) for guiding, instructing and playing in waves. The clear rear deck means less likelihood of line hang-ups when towing another boat (something you do on the regular when guiding). And the skeg boat rocker makes it easier to paddle backwards - something you also do a lot of when you are the sole guide on a tour.

A well-designed rudder boat should track fairly straight in calmish water, even with the rudder out of the water to reduce drag. But in quartering seas (waves coming in at 45 degrees to the bow), the rudder more than pays for itself drag-wise by reducing the need for constant, asymmetrical corrective strokes on the downwind side. Rudders are also excellent for holding courses while sailing. (For years, every rudder kayak I've owned, I've mounted a sail system of one kind or another.)

On all my rudder boats for years, I've also upgraded to the SmartTrack rudder foils to minimize drag, and to the ToePilot foot pedals, because, like others on this thread, I hate sliding foot pedals - nothing to brace on for strokes, sweeps and rolls.
 
Remember not to criticize a concept Rudders and Pedals just because too many manufacturers don't know how to design things properly.

Pedals - full foot size, hinge level with the ankle.
Rudders - the 90 degree or Daggerboard rudder

These are good design, pedals - plenty to push against, rudders - can't fall sideways when up (up line holds them in place) and stay down because of where the weight and hinging is.

The Smarttrack concept - I designed mine back in the 1980s long before a US commercial manufacturer said they'd "invented" it. The blade is held down by the pull-down line with a bit of bungy to allow kick-up if hitting anything. The commercial one most probably doesn't have that. Yes? No?
 
I dunno...my Tsunami 165 has the sliding footpeg rudder pedals and I have no issues with them at all. I do understand why people feel like they remove the solid "bulkhead" for you to brace your feet against (I understand why a strong "something" to push against when paddling improves your power and efficiency).

I've just adapted to the sliding footpeg pedals: when I have the rudder set where I want it, I simply apply equal pressure to both pedals and it's rock-solid (I can push HARD against the pegs). Also, if you actually use your knee/thigh braces there is less need to push against something with your feet when paddling hard (the butt-thigh/knee-foot triangle creates a very strong "brace" that holds you tightly in place in the boat). And I do understand that some people don't like to sit "frog-legged" while using the knee braces and would rather just lay their legs straight together on the bottom of the hull.

as I said above, we humans are immensely adaptable and can eventually feel like anything is "no big deal" so that may be where I am with the sliding footpeg rudder pedals. :) (And none of this means I wouldn't possibly like something like the Toe Pilot pegs better.)
 
One of the problems with the sliding footpegs is that they make it difficult/impossible to edge the boat (to an outside edge) when turning.
On the other hand, a friend with knee problems switched back to the sliding footpegs (from Bigfoots) because the constant small motions of his feet helped his knee to not 'lock up'.
So, something for everybody! :)
 
We did a day paddle in northern Queensland, Australia a few years ago. Kayaks and lunch provided. I paddled the guide's Puffin back, my partner in the double with the guide.
A Puffin has sliding pedals. I got the impression that the pedal slides had never been cleaned of sand, ever. The pedals didn't slide, they jumped from lump of grit to lump of grit.

If you have sliding pedals, keep the slides and pedals clean.
 
Mac50L said:
If you have sliding pedals, keep the slides and pedals clean.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Also, keep the rudder cables well maintained as the constant pressure puts a lot of wear and strain on them. Don't use Spectra rudder cables except as a field repair. Keep the tubes well rinsed with fresh water - salt deposits can wear the cable.
 
JohnAbercrombie said:
One of the problems with the sliding footpegs is that they make it difficult/impossible to edge the boat (to an outside edge) when turning.
On the other hand, a friend with knee problems switched back to the sliding footpegs (from Bigfoots) because the constant small motions of his feet helped his knee to not 'lock up'.
So, something for everybody! :)
Click to expand...
Hmm...I don't agree. I have no problems edging (holding a lean) with footpegs...but that may be because it's a holdover from my years of whitewater paddling? I think you might be referring to how it's easier with your legs centered at the bottom to just shift your weight to one side or the other to keep the boat heeled over while paddling?

I just use my hips/obliques to hold the boat up on edge while paddling—but I admit this gets hard if you want to hold a lean for a mile! (Which is why I like rudders! LOL)
 
Mac50L said:
We did a day paddle in northern Queensland, Australia a few years ago. Kayaks and lunch provided. I paddled the guide's Puffin back, my partner in the double with the guide.
A Puffin has sliding pedals. I got the impression that the pedal slides had never been cleaned of sand, ever. The pedals didn't slide, they jumped from lump of grit to lump of grit.

If you have sliding pedals, keep the slides and pedals clean.
Click to expand...
Yep. This is one of those issues that depends entirely on whether you paddle in saltwater (and put in/take out on sandy beaches) or not. Most of my paddling is on freshwater (or brackish estuaries) so I've never really had any issues with salt or sand. (But I can see how they'd gum up the works!)
 
SWriverstone said:
Hmm...I don't agree. I have no problems edging (holding a lean) with footpegs...
Click to expand...
My comment was about sliding footpegs, and the amount that the peg has to be moved to turn the rudder effectively depends on the way the cables are attached to the rudder bracket. However....It's possible (and preferred in some hulls?) to edge 'to the inside' of the turn - sort of like leaning a bike. But, most of the time it's preferred to put the boat on the outside edge.
In other words, turning to the left, the left side of the boat should be raised - by pressing your leg (thigh) up against the thigh pad on that side. But to actuate the left turn rudder, that left leg needs to be straightened to move the left footpeg forward. Straightening the leg moves it away from the thigh pad.
I have read (on Matt Broze's marinerkayaks website) that some paddlers set up their rudder cables 'crossed' to solve this problem.
Crossing Cables
One advantage of the tube mounted rudder cable system is that we can cross the rudder cables under the deck (this is usually not possible with the vinyl extrusion seam rudder cable channels used by many manufacturers). If you chose to have this done you have several advantages over the system used by nearly everyone else at this time. You can turn your kayak far faster because you can lift the kayak with the knee that has been bent by the footpedal the rudder cable is pulling towards you. With uncrossed cables that knee would be lowered out of position when the pedal was pushed forward to turn. You can turn far faster if you tilt a kayak to the side opposite of the direction you are turning.
Tilt the kayak (not yourself) toward the outside of the turn by gripping the deck under the coaming with the knee. Most novice kayakers get this wrong and try to lean into the turn. Leaning into the turn can speed the turn up slightly, but with most kayaks this turn isn't nearly as quick as tilting the kayak to the outside of the turn.
Click to expand...
With standard rudder cables that aren't crossed it is not easy or secure to tilt the kayak much this way.
Click to expand...
Another situation where crossed rudder cables have a big advantage is in steep following seas. In this situation when you start to surf the tendency is for the kayak to broach sideways. Although the broaching tendency of Mariner models is far less than other kayaks on the market, it can still happen. Mariner kayak's broach with a slow "carved turn" not the more typical wild sideways skid. Crossed rudder cables can allow you to lift the down wave knee to hold the kayak level or leaned into the wave and simultaneously angle the rudder. This way when the rudder returns to the water it can help return the kayak to its course.

If you try this with a standard rudder your downwave knee is pushing the pedal forward and is not in a position to grip under the deck to hold the kayak level. When the rudder renters the water it can trip the kayak. This may result in a capsize because the knee is not available to counteract the tripping force. This is especially true if your kayak is skidding to the side like many (non-Mariner) kayaks do while their rudders are hanging over the back of a steep wave flailing helplessly in the air.
Click to expand...
Lots of reasons to avoid those sliding footpegs! :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: CPS
I still don't get it John, but your post is fascinating! I think at some point long ago (like decades ago) I heard that you should edge to the outside of a turn, so I've always done that...though recently I've been playing around with edging to the inside—and it wasn't a total fail, LOL.

Interestingly, outside-edging is the norm when paddling a whitewater slalom C-1 (which I've paddled for decades). Because the boat is a canoe that only weighs 20lbs (yes it's true!), every forward stroke you take pushes the bow (almost violently) to the opposite side. So you counteract this three ways: by using J-strokes (which are avoided in racing because they slow you down), using crossbow forward strokes, and by constantly cutting your opposite edge into the water to help keep the boat going straight.

So this is the mentality I brought to sea kayaking! LOL
 
That, "raise the left edge and sweep on the right side" to turn left will make more sense if you view it picturing a boat with an extreme rocker. Edging the boat minimizes the keel length in the water. Lifting the left edge while sweeping on the right means the boat's bow is not "pushing" against the water as you turn.
 
JohnAbercrombie said:
I have read...that some paddlers set up their rudder cables 'crossed' to solve this problem.
Click to expand...
THIS!!!

It makes perfect sense, in my mind anyway, as edging is the same regardless of rudder use.

I'm clearly not an 'influencer', whatever the hell that is, as I've only managed to get two friends to do the same. True sceptics, they took a lot of convincing but eventually saw the benefits. When one of them ordered a new kayak and asked the manufacturer to cross the cables there was considerable communication to confirm the order!

Good discussion folks: it's nice that differing views are being explored with respect.
 
I love my sliding rudder pedals and hate the pivoting style. It seems like my foot has to be "just right" on the pivot pedal and even so, my foot just doesn't want to bend that way. My knees and hips start to hurt after an hour and I have to move around in the boat to maintain some degree of comfort, so changing my foot position often is a necessity. I haven't tried pedals with a lower pivot point, that sounds like it might work better for me.

If my rudder is down, leaning the boat seems pointless; it just makes the rudder less effective. That said I've certainly leaned my boat and thrown in a sweep or two to make a tight turn, with the rudder down.

My pedals are set up so that I flex my foot, rather than extend my leg, to control the rudder. This let's me brace with my heel, thigh and hip on each side.

I also store up to 25l of water forward of my pedals, secured with cargo straps, and am loath to give up that space by blocking it with a foot board.

All that said, this discussion really illustrates that when it comes to rudders, skegs and pedals, it's truly a matter of different strokes for different folks.

Thanks to you all for an interesting and informative discussion!
 
dimit said:
I haven't tried pedals with a lower pivot point, that sounds like it might work better for me.
Click to expand...
As far as some of us are concerned they are the only "proper" pedals. Full-foot pedals. With the hinge level with the ankle, that's how the foot works, the ankle bends when walking or steering. Full-foot so the feet have something to "stand" on.

As for stowage forward of the pedals, simply have the pedals so they can be slid back. The rudder line going through the top of them can be rigged so you simply lift it up out of the hole at the top of the pedal. Remember the only fastenings for each rudder line are the ends tied to the rudder and the other ends to the fore bulkhead or similar place.

The pedals are only held from going forward further than wanted by a webbing strap fastened into a clamp cleat just in front of the seat.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top