Portage system suggestions?

JohnAbercrombie

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Why Trolleys Break
There are comments about breaking trolleys. I'm not surprised if people build weak trolleys as shown on the web.
Thanks, Sandy. Your real-world experience and insights are really valuable.
I think your idea of the 'S' threading of the straps is very clever. Also, the legs storing inside the supports is less cumbersome than the flip-down style.
Some of your comments about the defects of commercial trolleys (aka carts) would be useful. It seems that a lot of the carts broken on the Bowren portages were commercial, not home-built.
https://www.trailheadpaddleshack.ca/wilderness-systems-heavy-duty-kayak-cart-with-no-f.html

https://www.mec.ca/en/product/6002-625/Kayak-Cart-Ultralight?

https://www.kayakacademy.com/products/suspenz-dlx-beach-cart?

https://www.kayakacademy.com/products/suspenz-heavy-duty-airless-cart-10-dia-airless-wheels?_

I had a C-Tug and it seemed difficult to assemble and disassemble, so I re-sold it. But I am not a 'cart guy'.
https://westerncanoekayak.com/c-tug-with-puncture-free-wheel/
 

CPS

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I had a C-Tug and it seemed difficult to assemble and disassemble, so I re-sold it. But I am not a 'cart guy'.
https://westerncanoekayak.com/c-tug-with-puncture-free-wheel/
They're definitely not the most intuitive to put together. Gotta be surprisingly rough with them.

I've still resisted getting a cart as I don't often have to carry for too far and I'm still young/dumb enough to toss it on a shoulder and hoof it. But whenever I see a older/wiser gent rolling all his kit on a cart I can't shake the feeling they're onto something.

I have little practical experience with kayak carts, but I suspect many of the weak points come from folding or disassembling mechanisms that enable them to fit into a kayak. Bulky, and inelegant solutions are probably the most reliable, but cumbersome.
 

JohnAbercrombie

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They're definitely not the most intuitive to put together. Gotta be surprisingly rough with them.
That's the perennial problem with plastic 'snap together and snap apart' things for me -" Am I breaking it here, or is this the way to do it?"

I've snapped off more than one plastic battery compartment cover that way.... :)
 
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Mac50L

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Thanks, Sandy. Your real-world experience and insights are really valuable.
And thank you for your acknowledgement of a very close to 80 year old's real world of seafaring. About 75 years of seafaring, off and on!!!
Some of your comments about the defects of commercial trolleys (aka carts) would be useful.
https://www.trailheadpaddleshack.ca/wilderness-systems-heavy-duty-kayak-cart-with-no-f.html
This one looks to be the best but a bit expensive. Maybe that's the problem with being good? The yellow tube plugs need removing and throwing away and the webbing straps to be fitted through the tubes.

A kayak changes shape quickly across it. It changes shape very little along it. So? Make the support lengthwise. This also helps stop toppling over when towing. There was a New Zealand one about 4" fore and aft length. It had to be strapped down very tightly to stop it toppling. Bad design.

cps - "but I suspect many of the weak points come from folding or disassembling mechanisms that enable them to fit into a kayak."

Mine, you pull two pins out of the axle, pull the wheels off, pull the Ts off the axle and there it is, all disassembled. Put the pins back in to the axle so as not to lose them. No way is it possible to make it easier or more obvious how things disassemble and stow.
 
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RickMcMinn

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1617084594778.png

I showed up at Becker's lodge where you can rent canoes and other gear with the old style Washburn Kayak Cart. Gunther, a big fellow of German decent, looked at my wheels and shook his head (I thought he was going to call them "Girly Wheels"). He said you need one of these (see picture above). I rented the foldable Kayak cart. It's big, it's heavy, but I had no problems on the trip hauling my kayak with all gear in the boat by myself. I was using a Mariner Coaster, a small 13 foot kayak. The cart folded up and I strapped it to my back deck while paddling. I don't recall how much my gear weighed but I do not recall anyone weighing it. I probably was not carrying much food because I was with a large group of Boy Scouts and they probably carried most of the food.

Oh no. I looked at the fine print on the website and while they show this picture they say they no longer rent Kayak carts. Nuts. I'd call them and ask them what folks are using. I would not count on any of the typical kayak wheels I've seen especially if I was going by myself.

Not pretty, but it worked.

1617087082916.jpeg
 

AM

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The Bowron Parks operator rents canoes and carts. The carts are the Western Canoe heavy duty ones. Unfortunately, while great for canoes, they are unsuitable in size for kayaks to carry on the water:


Cheers,
Andrew
 

eriktheviking

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Yes this seem like pretty badass carts that could take a beating. Would prefer to rent but that seems like not an option. I will ask around town here and see if anyone has one to borrow as it is pricy for one trip use.

Looks like a concession opportunity- set up maybe halfway down the first portage trail.
 

mick_allen

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I guess 2 other possible cartissues [in addition to the one's I mentioned way early] or characteristics that may or will apply:

1) Do you wish the cart to fit inside the kayak, and be light and compact ? [Rules out a lot of carts mentioned. Oxymoron swedish 'foldable?'] Hatch or ckpt depth in front or betw legs determines wheel size if so. Do you or your partners want to be able to be rescued using typical techniques - cowboy techs, paddlefloat techs, layback techs, assisted techs????? Does safety go out the window for you and your cherished partners when you go on trips?

2) Low carts have shorter frame members and put much less stress on the frame, but at the expense of bentover pulling, tail dragging and end-scraping on uneven or dipped trails. [this was a constant hassle for me as the other carted yak [hull about 12" above ground] was often scraping and needed a rear guide/lifter/pusher -me, heh heh] This was an interesting one - as if you draw a straight line back from your shoulder in a bent strong pulling position, see if the carted kayak will align with that line and how much clearance is left at the stern [it is on an angle, front up- tail down, if pulling hard] Often this situation was not on flat ground, but say on muddy dips - the worst scenario.

3) large diam wheeled carts will be easier but smaller are harder to pull so have or make a toggle to distribute the stress over the whole hand when pulling the kayak - I didn't really notice initially but my gloved fingers quickly got big abrasion/blisters before I made some toggles out of a found branch.

anyway, some other characteristics to consider.
 

Kayak Jim

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I watched a woman at the marina ramp last week load her kayak onto a small cart. She then put on a backpack type waist belt and hooked herself to the bow toggle with a biner. Hands free up the hill to (I assume) one of the neighbourhood stratas.
 

JohnAbercrombie

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I watched a woman at the marina ramp last week load her kayak onto a small cart. She then put on a backpack type waist belt and hooked herself to the bow toggle with a biner. Hands free up the hill to (I assume) one of the neighbourhood stratas.
Good attitude!:thumbsup:
Hopefully not too many downhills on her route.
A setup with poles to keep the boat from crashing into ones back, like a pulk towing harness might be an idea. Lots of info online on that..
 

Mac50L

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Mick Allen's questions about T trolleys and strength are totally justified IF anyone builds a trolley from one of the many websites showing how to make one. If you want to see bad design do a Google on "DIY kayak trolley".

It appears common for them to use 3/4" and maybe 1" OD(?) plastic tubing. Stupidity.

They all use a threaded axle. If you have plain bearings that's the wheel worn out. Stupidity.

They hold the wheels on with nuts, that means a spanner. Stupidity.

The smallest tubing I use is 1-1/2" ID. I have one from a friend who's tubing is near the same diameter as the length of the verticals of the T. He built it for his double and It looks like it could easily take a Mac truck. Heavy? No, just a little bulky.

My axle is a stainless steel tube with the wheels retained by R clips. Quick and easy to fit and remove, wheels with plain bearings and no room for grit or sand to get in. Keep the wheels and Ts apart? A bit of light plastic tube.

I only use 2 T pieces, not 7 or 8. There is only 4 feet or less of tubing used, not 10 feet plus.

The stands, one for each T are bits of hose, garden hose would do, retained by light bungy. Not a solid long horizontal bar that is going to get caught on things as found on DIY sites.

"That Adventure Life" is a classic how not to do it. Hiking Earth is not much better.
REI Co-op Journal's one is even worse and totally over built and under speced.
One of the worst sites is "the Spruce" with no drawings and hard to follow instructions and uses 18 feet of pipe! At least they use 2" ABS pipe.

One writer was saying DIY trolleys aren't any good and he recommends the C-tug (paid for recommending?). Just because he is incompetent doesn't mean DIY done properly aren't good.

Amazing what you find on the web when Googling......
 

JohnAbercrombie

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Sandy:
A couple of questons:
Are your 'T' pieces glued together? Do they fit through standard kayak hatches - round 10" or the oval shapes?

Also, How do you reinforce the bottom of the T where the axle passes through? (see pic) Is that another T fitting that you slice the thick section from?

Sandy PVC cart.JPG
 

Mac50L

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Sandy:
A couple of questions:
Are your 'T' pieces glued together?
Yes, Ts glued to the tubing.
Do they fit through standard kayak hatches - round 10" or the oval shapes?
From the top of a T to the bottom of the vertical is 7" on my usual ones so they should go in at an angle.
Also, How do you reinforce the bottom of the T where the axle passes through? (see pic) Is that another T fitting that you slice the thick section from?
To give a bit more plastic where the axle goes through I've taken a bit of pipe and split it lengthwise to make it big enough, expand it, to slide on to the vertical tube. Plenty of glue and there's a reinforced tube plus twice the thickness for axle wear if the axle rotates - and shouldn't.

Note that all the DIY sites stop the Ts moving relative to each other with an added tubing crossbar. I don't. The Ts are free to move on the axle relative to each other.
Does it matter? No.
Does it possibly reduce stress? Probably, especially if the kayak isn't placed square on the trolley.

The two strap fastening method, under the kayak and then over, pulls the ends inwards across the bottom and pulls the ends outwards by where the webbing goes over the kayak. This should mean zero total stressing in and out with two straps one coming out the aft ends and the other out the front ends of the horizontal tubes. One strap cancels the other.
 

JohnAbercrombie

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Thanks.
From the top of a T to the bottom of the vertical is 7" on my usual ones so they should go in at an angle.
I'll have to fit some pieces together - it's a 1.5" diameter tubing 'T' about 16 inches long with a 7+ inch stub?
Your instructions state the two horizontal pieces are 170 and 130 mm, and the fitting length adds to that. The vertical 'stub' is 105 mm + the extra length from the fitting. Have I got that right?

Sometimes fitting even straight tubes into a compartment can be tricky if the compartment isn't very deep/high.

Note that all the DIY sites stop the Ts moving relative to each other with an added tubing crossbar. I don't. The Ts are free to move on the axle relative to each other.
Does it matter? No.
Those pins inserted into the bottom of the vertical tubes and into the axle will keep the verticals from rotating relative to each other? And the legs will keep the 'T's from falling over? Otherwise it would be impossible to get the cart to stay lined up long enough to get the kayak on top of it?
 

mick_allen

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Mick Allen's questions about T trolleys and strength are totally justified IF . . . [summarized] used for poorly developed carts
Not quite correct, Sandy: I’m making a general statement about the unbraced T-frame structural approach for any cart.

The HOWEVER is that for unbraced T carts, steps must be taken by chosen material, layout, detail, or use to overcome the liabilities that T-framing and its moment connections require:

Most don’t take those steps, but yours do to some degree. So it’s just not fair to criticize yours in any way further than I've done - as you have pointed out there’s a million carts out there worthy of justified criticism . . . but in the extreme, one can usually repair them on the go, break gear into smaller loads, or put 2 yaks stacked on the good cart.
 

Mac50L

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Those pins inserted into the bottom of the vertical tubes and into the axle will keep the verticals from rotating relative to each other? And the legs will keep the 'T's from falling over? Otherwise it would be impossible to get the cart to stay lined up long enough to get the kayak on top of it?
A good Easter weekend but we weren't on the water, too busy at a Folk Music Festival, Oh well.... guitars and ukuleles would have got wet if kayaking. If kayaking, stick to playing tin whistles, pack more easily.......

The pin shown in the picture I used to sometimes put it in the hole to stop the axle revolving (NOT the Ts revolving) and wearing the T piece. The R pin shown is the same type as used to keep the wheels on, at the ends of the axle.

To keep the cart upright while loading, there are two cheap-hose legs and this is why, in the dimensions, the horizontal of the T is asymmetric, one horizontal bar longer than the other to make it "topple" on to the legs. The pictures in the PDF on the web page -
show slots on the underside of the T at the long end. There is bungy from the foot of the leg, up the leg and to the far end of the T. This keeps the leg up against the underside of the T while loading and once loaded a quick flick and the leg retracts into the horizontal of the T. If you don't it doesn't matter, they just drag lightly on the ground if at the back, or probably off the ground if loaded with them at the front and pulling the kayak slightly bow up.
 
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