Rudder Deployment Rope Knots

Schuey

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I've been working on an old Necky and was going to replace all the lines. Bungee and static.
Anybody recognize the knots they used on the rudder line? Or could recommend alternatives.

I would like to position them further forward. Currently beside the rear hatch. Their size makes great "handles"

Thanks
 

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JKA

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Double or Triple-Fisherman's Knot that hasn't been pulled tight, perhaps?

 
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Schuey

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Thanks I've use that for bungees and thought about them here but I think I'll need some type of hitch I can adjust if the rope shrinks.
 

pryaker

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I'd guess it's a poorly executed (not done correctly) fisherman's with three turns on the left one and two on the right? Or is that 4 knots shown? Some of the pix look like maybe they're done correctly but are just upside down?
But anyway, I'd think that fisherman's knots might work for what you want? wouldn't they lock down on the line enough to allow the rudder to be raised but still be adjustable if needed?
 

JohnAbercrombie

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Thanks I've use that for bungees and thought about them here but I think I'll need some type of hitch I can adjust if the rope shrinks.
Is there not any stretch in the rudder deploy line - like a section of shock cord- or is the blade held down by a spring?

Not adjustable but another idea for something to grab is to use a plastic 'bead' on the line - available from chandlers who sell sailing dinghy sujpplies, or very cheaply from China via eBay/AliExpress. They're usually used at the end of lines, but a couple of knots will secure one in the middle of a line section.
 

Schuey

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It's just two knots. I tried to show both sides of them.
The knot on the right acts as a tight "loop" and the one on the left is a hitch I can use to tighten or loosen to adjust length.
I think I could find a hitch that would work. I just like that the size of the "loop" is equal to the other.
Thought maybe there was something standard people use.
 

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eggabeewa

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Is there not any stretch in the rudder deploy line - like a section of shock cord- or is the blade held down by a spring?

Not adjustable but another idea for something to grab is to use a plastic 'bead' on the line - available from chandlers who sell sailing dinghy sujpplies, or very cheaply from China via eBay/AliExpress. They're usually used at the end of lines, but a couple of knots will secure one in the middle of a line section.
Both of my neckys (circa 1990) have rigid line with a few inches of slack and no elastic. They used cleat to hold the rudder up or down line tight. They are tied with plain single end loop on one end and clove hitch on the other. I don't know for sure but I think they are oem.
PXL_20211210_041559931.jpg
 

JohnAbercrombie

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Both of my neckys (circa 1990) have rigid line with a few inches of slack and no elastic. They used cleat to hold the rudder up or down line tight. They are tied with plain single end loop on one end and clove hitch on the other.
Thanks for that info. What happens if you paddle over a rock or a log or kelp?
 

Mac50L

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What happens when you hit a rock? Yes, bad design. The cleat to hold the rudder down should be on a bungy. I sometimes think there is more bad design in kayaking gear than any other thing I can think of.
 

nootka

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Knots are definitely double & triple fishermans - but dressed differently.
It's easy to view the two forms by tying a double fish in a single cord and then moving one of the loops.
I highly doubt there is any difference in friction obtained by the different dressing.
 

Greg_B

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Delaware
Since I do not have a rudder on my kayaks, I am not sure I understand the situation enough to give advice. However, from what I can see in the photos, it appears that the knot on the right side may be simply to allow the line on the left to slip through as adjustments are made. Not sure, but the previous owner may have done those particular knots because the ones used were not holding position well.

I would be tempted to tie a bowline on the right side, and an adjustable grip hitch on the left.

Bowline: Bowline Knot | How to tie a Bowline Knot using Step-by-Step Animations | Animated Knots by Grog

Adjustable grip hitch: Adjustable Grip Hitch | How to tie a Adjustable Grip Hitch using Step-by-Step Animations | Animated Knots by Grog
 
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JohnAbercrombie

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Knots are definitely double & triple fishermans - but dressed differently.
It's easy to view the two forms by tying a double fish in a single cord and then moving one of the loops.
I highly doubt there is any difference in friction obtained by the different dressing.
:thumbsup:
That's how it looks to me, too.
I've never found that each half of a fishermans/grapevine knot was very 'grippy' - it's always pretty easy to slide the two halves of the knot together to form the final bend. For adjusting a rudder line length, I would have thought a rolling hitch-type of knot would have been more effective than half of a double or triple fisherman's knot.
In the Wikipedia entry for the double fisherman's knot, this:
This knot, along with the basic fisherman's knot can be used to join the ends of a necklace cord. The two strangle knots are left separated, and in this way the length of the necklace can be adjusted without breaking or untying the strand.
 

eggabeewa

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What happens when you hit a rock? Yes, bad design. The cleat to hold the rudder down should be on a bungy. I sometimes think there is more bad design in kayaking gear than any other thing I can think of.
Isn't it little harsh to call Neckys bad design. In that era, especially, they were a leader in many aspects and well ahead of much of the competition.
 

CPS

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In later years the arrangement was as you describe Mac 50L. I am not sure what year they made the switch though.
 

Schuey

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Both knots appear to be some sort of hitch. The forward one wraps around itself to form the adjustable loop and the rearward wraps around the top of the loop.

The work on this kayak feels like finding boxes inside of boxes. I hope the winter will be time enough to finish it!

Thanks to everyone for their input.
 

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JohnAbercrombie

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Isn't it little harsh to call Neckys bad design. In that era, especially, they were a leader in many aspects and well ahead of much of the competition.
A rudder design which doesn't stay down in normal paddlng but retract and return 'automatically' when the blade hits an obstacle is a bad design. I'm pretty sure @Mac50L wasn't referring to the hull design, but to the rudder when he criticized the Necky.
Not harsh at all, IMO- Most of the rudder boats I see when I paddle have very poor rudder rigging, with the blades trailing at 45 degrees to the water surface , with barely an inch or two of the blade submerged in flat calm conditions, and almost useless when it gets rough. It doesn't inspire much confidence in me to buy one of their boats if the company doesn't care about the effectiveness of the rudders they put on their boats. By 'the company', I refer to Current Designs, Seaward, Nimbus - the 'big three' around Victoria who are still producing kayaks, and whose boats (all with bad rudder setups) dominate the used kayak market here.
And don't get @Mac50L (or me) started on rudder pedal design! :)
 

Schuey

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The original setup seemed fine. Simple and the cleat was solid. If it was shallow I didn't use the rudder. It only took bouncing around in surf once to remember that.

This being said I'm new to the sport and open to ideas. Where in the arrangement would a bungee be placed?
 
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