Seymour Narrows Tidal Power Installation

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Point taken.

Back to the topic. Do you support or not support renewable energy projects such as the Canoe Pass project? Reasons please. Thoughts on windmills too, since you might come across them, in your paddles at some point in time.
 

JohnAbercrombie

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jk said:
So yes, we naysayers live in the real world, but the real world is whacked. For instance, run your hot water without adding cold water. Will it burn your hand? Why do we have millions of hot water tanks across North America keeping water at scorching temperatures to run for a bath or to wash our hands for which we invariably add cold water because the temperature is too high? This is the type of useless waste that goes unaddressed
I don't have 'all the answers' :) but I can answer this one.
A) If you have a stored hot water tank (vs on demand heating in a tube, and those have problems delivering low flows of hot water) then you need to keep the water hot enough to discourage bacterial growth. Turning the tank thermostat too low can make the tank into an incubator for bacteria and fungi.
B) A 40 gallon tank of lukewarm water will provide 40 gallons worth of shower, bath and laundry water. The same tank full of hot water will provide more gallons of usable warm water after mixing with cold. Anybody who has shared hot water with a family/group knows about 'running out' of hot water. Low-flow showers and HE washing machines do help on the demand side.

Speaking of families, nobody has mentioned population yet. The best thing one could do for the environment is to choose not to reproduce oneself. We're not doing too well on that..
 

drahcir

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JohnAbercrombie said:
Speaking of families, nobody has mentioned population yet. The best thing one could do for the environment is to choose not to reproduce oneself. We're not doing too well on that..
This is indeed the elephant in the living room. Resource consumption/wastage, pollution, and a host of other problems are proportional (in at least a rough sense) to the number of people on the planet. And if all people are to be brought up to the "living standard" of our countries, we are on the path to extinction, taking other species with us. Part of the solution is 'going green', an elusive target as pointed out on this forum. The other part is curbing/reversing population growth, which meshes poorly with growth as seemingly dictated by capitalism.
 

ken_vandeburgt

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seadevilsadvocate said:
Point taken.

Back to the topic. Do you support or not support renewable energy projects such as the Canoe Pass project? Reasons please. Thoughts on windmills too, since you might come across them, in your paddles at some point in time.
I do not support renewable energy projects such as Canoe Pass. Why? You still need the coal fired plant idling in the event the wind sun and tides are not favorable. And this is ugly:


Windfarm at Mojave California

I would support research into space based solar and wireless transmission needed to get the power to Earth.
 

Roy222

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I really hope that tidal will work in terms of economics and environment. But I doubt technology can not change the laws of physics. Who would propose installing turbines just up stream of Niagara Falls? ( The Niagara River might not flow as fast as Seymour Narrows)
Ok, we first picked the low fruit at falls and dams to generate power. Tidal flow Is the high fruit. The Romans used tidal pools for energy. Tidal power is not a new 21 century idea.

Now picture a huge structure in narrows where you have seen Kayaks surfing. Let that image be you image of the environmental impact.
Only time will tell if Technology can make Tidal energy usable.


Roy
 
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jk said:
Outsider said:
Seems most everybody here, regardless of their selfish details, wants everything for free as it suits them. Paddlers or not, we live in the real world.
Okay, I'll bite. One of the oldest criticisms against environmentalists attending meetings is, "How did you get here? You drove! You need the pipelines and tankers! How can you deny the infrastructure you are using!" Well, the answer is we drive because the electric solar-powered public transit isn't available. So society is making that choice, not the individual. I don't know that anyone anywhere expressed wanting something for free. I think the problem is people are often blind to the hidden costs, which was why it's worth pointing out, for instance, that damaging infrastructure is just one associated consequence of a so-called 'green' solution. It is not selfish to know the consequences.

So yes, we naysayers live in the real world, but the real world is whacked. For instance, run your hot water without adding cold water. Will it burn your hand? Why do we have millions of hot water tanks across North America keeping water at scorching temperatures to run for a bath or to wash our hands for which we invariably add cold water because the temperature is too high? This is the type of useless waste that goes unaddressed and yet instead of addressing useless waste we add to the generating capacity despite consequences. Last summer I spent 3 1/2 months on the water on a boat so all electricity was solar generated other than some use of a generator when it was cloudy for days on end. So I became very attuned to the use of resources like electricity and water and it is amazing how little you can use when you are required without it impacting lifestyle. For instance, you don't leave a phone charger plugged in that continues an electrical drain even when a phone isn't attached. Just one stupid small example. In a house you ignore this type of thing because it's so easy because you are so removed from the source. Magnify this type of thing by millions and you have a major problem. Such as second freezers in the garage to freeze ham hocks and orange juice cans bought last year. They were on sale and bought in bulk, so you saved some money, and yet you paid $400 in electricity for the freezer over the course of that year. We're flooding the Peace River so people can make stupid purchasing decisions? Or so people don't have to think about how they use resources? That's the selfish aspect. "I want without concern for consequence" is about as selfish as selfish gets.

So I reject any statement of 'get with the program' when the program is flawed. We are fixing the wrong thing, we should be fixing demand first, not capacity, and when we do truly need more capacity it should be done in the most intelligent and least impactful way possible. I reject the outlook that something is 'green' simply because it doesn't create emissions. The real cost needs to be known. With tidal turbines we don't know that yet so we are essentially introducing the potential equivalent of DDTs into the water. The last thing we want is another 'oops, we goofed,' or a debate raging 20-50 years after their introduction as to how much of the negative impact seen in the marine environment can be attributed to tidal turbines once they're as prevalent as fish farms.

So the process here, Outsider, is questioning the process, not wanting selfishly for free. I acknowledge I require electricity. As of May 1 to Oct. 1 that will be almost entirely solar generated, done almost entirely by addressing the amount used. So I plan to live much as I preach, for what that's worth, but not much as most of us don't have an alternative to what's offered unless we fight for change which involves examining and criticizing the status quo. These types of forums are part of that valuable process and turning it back on the people who question the status quo is probably the weakest possible way to forward the debate. It's like the "you drove here, therefore you can't possibly criticize the pipeline" argument. You can't fault someone for not using an alternative when the alternative doesn't exist.
This is an excellent reply to a rather difficult question. Am wondering what Outsider is thinking. Agrees? Angry? still digesting the info.?
 
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ken_vandeburgt said:
seadevilsadvocate said:
Point taken.

Back to the topic. Do you support or not support renewable energy projects such as the Canoe Pass project? Reasons please. Thoughts on windmills too, since you might come across them, in your paddles at some point in time.
I do not support renewable energy projects such as Canoe Pass. Why? You still need the coal fired plant idling in the event the wind sun and tides are not favorable. And this is ugly:


Windfarm at Mojave California

I would support research into space based solar and wireless transmission needed to get the power to Earth.
Sorry, but I don't agree with you on the space based solar and wireless transmission concept. Can you provide any details that would change my mind?
 
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I did some reading on the space/power concept. I would not support spending canadian tax dollars on this any more than I would on nuclear fusion research. If money must be spent, then it would make more sense to spend public money on renewable energy in my opinion.
 

ken_vandeburgt

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seadevilsadvocate said:
Sorry, but I don't agree with you on the space based solar and wireless transmission concept. Can you provide any details that would change my mind?
1. In terms of solar energy, in space its raining soup and we don't even have a bowl.

2. Science texts from early 1960's were discussing solar power. It was all smoke and mirrors ... literally. It was all pop bottle lenses and arced mirrors focusing on boiling water. Photo voltaics didn't exist. The point being that if you don't do the research you don't ever get results. Research in space has resulted in significant technological advance even if the result hasn't always been what was hoped for.

3. One solution to the Malthusian problem is emigration to other planets combined with exploitation of resources off earth. You'll need a reason to go to space such as building the solar arrays in space to get the technology to make emigration possible.
 

Strange Magic

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The laws of physics rule out emigration to other planets as a viable solution to the Malthusian problem. The energy costs to relocate millions, let alone hundreds of millions of people with their possessions into high earth orbit or to other planets are prohibitive. And is this really a solution? Besides, the effective solution to the Malthusian problem is some form of population control right here on old terra firma. I would recommend instead of rocketing or beaming people into space, we instead grant to women complete equality worldwide, and halt their being regarded as domestic animals by a large portion of the world's cultures.

As for the fluctuating generation of electricity by wind and solar, the solution there is to invest in downtime storage of energy via electrolysis and/or flywheels, both totally practical here-and-now technologies that just need some commitment and some more engineering tweaking. Besides, I wouldn't want to be under that multi-gigawatt microwave beam generated by that enormous solar satellite if and when Something Goes Wrong, and the beam starts wandering around like the ray from the Death Star.
 

JohnAbercrombie

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Strange Magic said:
As for the fluctuating generation of electricity by wind and solar, the solution there is to invest in downtime storage of energy via electrolysis and/or flywheels, both totally practical here-and-now technologies that just need some commitment and some more engineering tweaking.
Nobody seems to be talking about pumped water energy storage much, but it's been in use for a good long while.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mos ... ting_Plant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_en ... e_projects

Of course, the first step is to get the 'renewable energy' fans to start addressing reality - intermittent energy conversion (day/night,between tides, calm days, etc.), & need to store energy. I see no sign of that. Not even 'back of envelope' calculations....but never mind, lots of money to be made with 'new' solutions.
In a world where burning a 100 year old carbon sink (tree), dumping the carbon dioxide into the atmosphere is considered 'green' and somehow different that burning oil, and when the populace is easily misled by talk of 'clean coal' and 'green LPG' , I tend to lose hope.
 

Strange Magic

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You are so right about the lack of interest in energy storage on the part of even the enthusiasts for renewable energy. Those uninterested in or hostile to alternative energy technologies keep using the intermittent nature of solar and wind as a whipping boy to discourage more vigorous use. And with natural gas and oil now at very low prices, there is even less incentive for serious action.

Regarding pumped storage, here in New Jersey the Yards Creek facility, 400MW, has been successfully in business since 1965. But the appeal of electrolysis and flywheels is that both technologies utilize far less acreage than does pumped storage. Flywheels eliminate dealing with volatile, dangerous materials like molten salts and other possibly toxic or highly-compressed materials, and can be located underground, safely away from other activity. No water is involved, so flywheels would be ideal for remote desert locales where solar capture is the generator of electricity. Likewise, electrolysis involves no exotic or problematic chemistries, the technologies of storing gases is well established, and whatever water is required can be recycled in the process of recombining the oxygen and hydrogen to recapture the energy used in the electrolysis.
 

BigandSmall

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Nootka, sorry my post isn't on the tidal installation but on clean energy. I see the solution to our energy crisis coming in the way of nuclear fusion. Fission scares the crap out of me and I don't support it's use at all anywhere but fusion is different animal. There is a company advertising major advances in fusion while being scarce on details. Have a look: http://www.lockheedmartin.ca/us/product ... usion.html Should they perfect this technology I think it's release will have to be very delayed though as to prevent the complete collapse of our current economic system.
 
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