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The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeline

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

I wrote something ... then I decided I didn't like what I wrote and tried to edit it. When you edit here there has to be something left in place. I too am a history buff and I felt that a photo of a disaster at sea was not entirely off topic ...

In retrospect, it is a reminder of what happens when you cut resources off to a nation that desperately needs them; one of the root causes of the war in the Pacific.
 
Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

People must learn to live with less and stop consuming like there's no tomorrow because one tanker spill and there might not be. Turn the lights off. Ride a bike and drive less. Don't use plastic products and packaging. The list goes on. Stop endless consuming.

To those in this discussion who are proponents of the tankers, I have one question...

How much evidence of man's inability to guarantee against a tanker spill do you need?
Click to expand...

How much evidence do you need to understand that NOTHING you do as an individual will reduce tanker traffic. The problem isn't what you are consuming. The problem is that if you were to die tomorrow ten more people will have been born and will collectively consume more even as they each consume less than half of what you do now.

7 billion and counting ... Malthus was right.

And oh yes ... plastic is derived from a waste product left over from making gasoline out of petroleum. The sludge will accumulate if you don't use products made from plastics. There is a pending shortage of aromatics such as gasoline. There is no shortage of plastic.
 
Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

Ken... you're so full of sunshine and happiness.

Can change start with one person? It always does. Can I stop tankers by myself? Probably not.

But collectively we can, and do, make a difference. Most differences start with one.

Just wonderin' where you got that statistic about ten people replacing me when I die.
 
Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

Those of us who value the coast and oppose the tankers are far from being alone in our concerns...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKVRuelvJ-s[/youtube]
 
Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

Thanks "stuckonearth" for the Bateman video link, it says it all. Even Ken should be able to see what is being put at risk but unfortunately Ken appears he gets his science from the Don Cherry school of environmental protection.
 
Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

I think Ken is being misinterpreted; so I'll give my interpretation. Ken, I'm about to put words in your mouth - please correct me and/or elaborate.

I don't think Ken thinks that the pipeline construction and choice of Kitimat are, in essence, good things. He sees them as inevitable i.e. even if they are stopped, they'll merely be moved or delayed. He's talking end game, not moves along the way. The driving force is, as he suggests, the inexorable increase of population and the resulting resource exploitation - accompanied perhaps by lack of political will.

There is evidence to support this point of view. I sometimes argue that human intelligence is an evolutionary advantage in the small, but not the large. If I want lumber from a few trees or they are cluttering my view, I may choose to cut them down. I seemingly win, while the forest loses. Taking resource extraction to its extreme, as we have done, shows that the human species has put itself in danger. Perhaps human intelligence is an evolutionary mutation that is not a survival characteristic for our species.

I part ways with Ken (or my interpretation of his posts) in that I want us to move toward sustainable resource extraction and will oppose what I see as unnecessary attacks on the environment. Is my lifestyle consistent with this? - not entirely. Is my hope Pollyannaish? - perhaps. Ken is more of a realist - no sugar coating, no unjustified optimism.
 
Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

Just wonderin' where you got that statistic about ten people replacing me when I die.
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population shows a population graph of how the earths population is growing.

The graph doesn't give the whole picture; peoples energy requirements are changing.

China is a great example of this. Prior to the great leap forward China was an agrarian society. Since then it is transformed into an industrial powerhouse with a skyrocketing standard of living based on western style consumerism. So 1 billion people that didn't own cars at all now have two in the driveway ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

The world population has doubled in the past 50 years but the percentage that own cars refrigerators and the like increase demand as if for tenfold.

My numbers are Rough Order Magnitude but I think you get the picture.
 
Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

ken_vandeburgt said:
Just wondering Ken V, do you own shares in Enbridge?
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... y/?q=ENB-T

I usually wont buy unless PE is less than 10 and usually sell if PE is over 20. In my view the stock is overpriced on this date. Enbridge is not an attractive buy at this time.
Click to expand...
I don't mean to be rude, Ken, but that doesn't even come close to answering my question.
 
Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

Logic puzzle. 1 equals win. 0 equals lose.

Problem one. We don't like tanker traffic for fear of a spill. Actuarian response measures the number of tanker trips made each year and counts the number of spills with the result that the quantifiable risk is zero. 0

Problem two. People don't like the pipeline for fear of a spill. Actuarian response measures the number of pipelines and the number of spills each year with the result that the quantifiable risk is zero. 0

Problem three. Haisla first nation doesn't want the pipeline for fear of a spill. This has the potential to be a 1. Unfortunately we have seen this stance before with Ahousat in Clayoquot Sound logging. The pessimist in me says this means Haisla stance should be interpreted to read 'you aren't offering enough money yet'. There is flipflop potential and I think end result will be 0

Problem four. The discussion of whether we should be selling a strategic resourse to a country that is not politically or culturally aligned. There is no discussion of this in Canada that paragon of political correctness. If this were to be discussed and pros and cons weighed this could be a 1. Its not so its a 0

Problem five. The environment. China burns coal. Oil burns much cleaner. CO2 emissions would be lower. Versus environmental damage from a spill in Douglas Channel or along the route of a pipeline. Look to Valdez. Look to BPs MC252. See the impact of these two major spills being quickly absorbed by the environment. From an environmental point of view this is a 0

Sum total is 0 except as noted for first nations objection. Sorry, you lose.

Projection? Pipeline and tankers have no rational objections and the project will go forward.

I have no stake in the outcome.
 
Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

I'll call bullshit here, Ken.

We hear news stories about oil spills, shipping accidents, and pipeline failures a far lot more frequently than "zero". Your logic doesn't add up.
 
Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

Where does the ethical bankruptcy set in?
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When environmental groups standing in protest are funded by USA sources with ulterior motives such as not wanting Canada to sell oil to anyone but USA.
 
Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

I'll call bullshit here, Ken.

We hear news stories about oil spills, shipping accidents, and pipeline failures a far lot more frequently than "zero". Your logic doesn't add up.
Click to expand...

Okay... get out your calculator. Say 10000 vessels sail every year (probably a significant underestimate) with 1 serious accident. Exxon Valdez ... MC252 and I am out of events so one per year is probably an overestimate. 1/10000 to three decimal points is zero.

If you have better numbers please do ...
 
Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

When environmental groups standing in protest are funded by USA sources with ulterior motives such as not wanting Canada to sell oil to anyone but USA.
Click to expand...

Oh right, the "foreign eco-terrorists funded by US oil refiners who want the oil"...you've really gone off your meds on that one....
It must be great to be an environmentalist with all those soon-to-be-worthless CIA dollars floating around.
 
Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

ken_vandeburgt said:
Problem one. We don't like tanker traffic for fear of a spill. Actuarian response measures the number of tanker trips made each year and counts the number of spills with the result that the quantifiable risk is zero. 0
Click to expand...

Not when you consider the environmental impact of such a spill.

Drilling rigs are, for the most part, in open ocean which allows a response time to mitigate (but not eliminate, clearly) the damage before oil reached shore. Not so in the port of Kitimat. Environmental damage would be swift and devastating.

Kinda like comparing it to commercial air travel. The risk of a crash is pretty close to zero, yet we still get on a plane. If it crashes, it would affect those aboard and maybe a small group on the ground. What if, however, all commercial jets carried a nuclear warhead? The impact would affect many, many more people, but the risk of a crash is the same. Would you feel as comfortable with the risk?

Yes, yes, this is an exaggeration, but the point I think is valid - at least as valid as your exaggeration that there is no risk.

Now excuse me while I explain this post to the men in black suits and sunglasses that will soon be knocking on my door...
 
Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

ken_vandeburgt said:
1/10000 to three decimal points is zero.
Click to expand...
That's not the definition of zero that I learned in school.
 
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