Well oil be dammed

pawsplus

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Landlocked in Tennessee
I've been following this, as my mom lives in Vancouver. :( It really is horrible. And the ship that almost surely did it is denying it and didn't alert the authorities so it wasn't contained as soon as it could be. :(
 

tiagosantos

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Jul 31, 2014
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Port Coquitlam BC
Thankfully it could have been much worse - despite the botched response..

I was at 2nd beach this morning with Ana, helping her setup the volunteer efforts for logging and collecting oiled birds. At 2nd beach, it was hard to tell anything had happened, but there were a couple of oiled birds around. I left before they moved towards English Bay, but hopefully they did manage to collect most of the fuel - we heard on the radio last night that "it'll all be cleaned up by morning" haha. Sure.
 

Astoriadave

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Astoria, Oregon, USA
Bunker oil, aka bunker fuel, can be denser than water, and typically congeals to a sludge in cold water. Could be there is quite a bit unseen, and yet to work ashore. I hope not.
 

Outsider

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Vancouver, B.C.
I don't think that this is at all the end of the world.
Doesn't anyone have anything positive to say or put this in perspective.
I live at English Bay. Seems just an accident to me.
Accidents happen everywhere.

Outsider
 

Outsider

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By the way.
Almost all of your gear including your kayak is made from petroleum products.
Where do you guys get off with your righteousness?
 

Dan_Millsip

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Beautiful BC
Good grief. What the heck is wrong with you?

There's a huge difference between manufacturing a plastic kayak and dumping bunker oil into English Bay.
 

Astoriadave

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Outsider said:
I don't think that this is at all the end of the world.
Doesn't anyone have anything positive to say or put this in perspective.
I live at English Bay. Seems just an accident to me.
Accidents happen everywhere.

Outsider
Outsider, I agree accidents happen. Oil spills from ocean going vessels are going to happen, various ways. Some are catastrophic, some minor. Compared to the spill from the Exxon Valdez in 1989, this one is minor. I think what has folks in an uproar is that it appears there is not much infrastructure set up to deal with spills. Certainly you agree they should be contained, as best as possible, and not ignored. Where I live, on the lower reaches of the Columbia, there are caches of spill containment materials stashed in five or six nesr water locations from the mouth to Portland, some 90 miles of river. And, a large sea going vessel permanently stationed in my town, outfitted to deal with spills occurring at sea. Funding is part from the government, part from companies which ship oil.
I
The bottom line is to be ready to respond to accidents, and not to ignore them. The Columbia, like the waters around Vancouver leading to the Fraser River, are prime habitant for migrating anadromous fish. A spill can have a devastating effect on the harvest of salmon, both at the time of the spill, and years into the future. And that can wreak havoc on a fruitful and economically valuable resource near my town. Similar to what happened in Prince William Sound, but on a much smaller scale.

To fail to prepare adequately for accidents such as the spill near Vancouver is irresponsible for a culture dependent on oil. Just as it would be irresponsible to fail to carry a first aid kit when you go paddling.
 

Rodnak Kayak

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Dec 19, 2007
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544
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Victoria, BC
I am not sure what to say.
My kayak never oiled a sea bird, nor fouled a beach.
A pinch of salt is tasty on my food, a heaping spoonful is almost toxic.
I hope more people "whine" about this, as it just shows what a big spill would do, and how tough it would be to respond to a spill in a remote and even more pristine area of our land.
The only thing "positive" about this: it is a mini warning of what would happen with a huge tanker breaking up. Oh, that would also just be an accident....a really BAD accident.
Count me in as another "whiner" just wanting to get off the fossil fuel addiction.
 

DALAJS

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Oct 30, 2013
Messages
42
Outsider said:
I don't think that this is at all the end of the world.
Doesn't anyone have anything positive to say or put this in perspective.
I live at English Bay. Seems just an accident to me.
Accidents happen everywhere.

Outsider
I can't remember anyone suggesting this wasn't an accident. Accident or not, I'm not sure nobody thinks an oil spill is an ideal situation.

I'm also confused as to why you think people should be looking for the silver lining in an oil spill... This is not a positive situation, why pretend that it is?

All of this "righteousness" could also be interpreted as concern for the safety of the environment and the public. You know, if you are interested in a positive perspective...
 

Outsider

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Rodnak,
What makes you think or seem so sure that the construction of your kayak and your gear was never related to an oil spill.
Maybe you could follow through on where your kayak and gear came from and convince me that you are not involved.
I think, that in fact, you don't know.
That's why I use the righteous word.
Kayakers, me included, think that our way is the best, cleanest, greenest as it can get. Is it?
I am trying to point out that you are separating yourselves from the problem as if it has nothing to do with you.
You are wrong.
Canada has the most strict and stringent rules regarding our ports and the shipments of anything that comes our way.
But we are a strong, affluent and emerging power in the world. You accept this as your entitlement. We didn't do it by carving our kayaks out of cedar trees. After all, someone would also object to this.
Be realistic. I am a supreme animal lover and nature guy. I grew up that way in the outdoors.
I don't want any harm to come to anything.
I also don't want to have a car crash on the way to work or hit a pedestrian on my bike. But it happens. The blame game doesn't help other than make us feel self-righteous.
We learn and we fix it. No need to get indignant. You make mistakes yourself but don't expect everybody to come down on you. Do you?

That's why I noted that no one is saying that anything positive can be learned here.
There is. It doesn't require indignant self righteousness.

Outsider
 

Outsider

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Vancouver, B.C.
Dan,
There is no real difference between manufacturing a kayak and an oil spill in English Bay even though you think so. Think bigger.
You would not have a kayak without oil
You are avoiding the big thing by focusing on the specifics, that being an oil spill.
You cannot pretend that you are not a part of the problem.
If you and everyone else did not need oil or petroleum products you would not have a kayak.
There would be no oil spills.

Outsider
 

Dan_Millsip

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Mar 8, 2005
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Beautiful BC
:yikes:

I think I'm going to head back to my cave, bash a couple of rocks together until I get a spark to start a fire and then find a way to smoke this dried plant that I found. My head is spinning.

Wow. Seriously, wow.
 

Astoriadave

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May 31, 2005
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Astoria, Oregon, USA
Outsider,

How about tackling some of the information I laid out describing the infrastructure set up on the Columbia to minmize the impact of oil spills? And responding to the words of others, point by point?

I'm not getting a sense of dialog here. I responded to your comments about accidents by describing ways folks here are trying to relieve the impact of oil spill accidents. Folks here implicitly recognize there will be accidents, and try to deal with them. That seems a civilized response.

As for equating owning a fiberglass kayak to spilling oil, or increasing that likelihood, yup, that is literally true. Given the culture and economy we have, then, what steps can be taken to minimize the effects of owning a fiberglass boat? Got ideas on that?

It is just too glib to throw stones at those who drive cars or own petroleum derived gear as the major contributors to oil spills. I have serviced porta potties the hard way, by pumping poop and transporting it to a septic holding tank. Some of that transported material was mine. So, using your reasoning, because I was partly responsible for the porta potty contents, I should not be concerned if somebody spills an outhouse in the local bay? I am not following your logic.
 

pawsplus

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Jan 19, 2015
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Landlocked in Tennessee
The key point, IMHO, is that the ship that apparently had the accident failed to disclose it in a timely manner. That makes it more than mere "accident" in my book.
 

WGalbraith

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Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
211
Location
Victoria
After reading through the posts to this topic, I was as horrified as Dan. It was clear from the media reports that the Captain of the ship that caused this spill denied anything to do with it... until the photo evidence was presented. Until that point I thought maybe it was simply an accident. My blood boiled when I discovered that the Captain was lying and doing all he could to limit responsibility and therefore, liability rather than doing something about it.

In today's world it is unavoidable to use products made of plastics manufactured with oil products. That does not mean we should not do our utmost to minimize our effect on our environment. Spills will continue and we need to take responsibility for our actions and be prepared to deal with the consequences.
 

ken_vandeburgt

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Joined
Nov 13, 2007
Messages
1,154
Astoriadave said:
Outsider said:
I don't think that this is at all the end of the world.
Doesn't anyone have anything positive to say or put this in perspective.
I live at English Bay. Seems just an accident to me.
Accidents happen everywhere.

Outsider
Outsider, I agree accidents happen. Oil spills from ocean going vessels are going to happen, various ways. Some are catastrophic, some minor. Compared to the spill from the Exxon Valdez in 1989, this one is minor. I think what has folks in an uproar is that it appears there is not much infrastructure set up to deal with spills. Certainly you agree they should be contained, as best as possible, and not ignored. Where I live, on the lower reaches of the Columbia, there are caches of spill containment materials stashed in five or six nesr water locations from the mouth to Portland, some 90 miles of river. And, a large sea going vessel permanently stationed in my town, outfitted to deal with spills occurring at sea. Funding is part from the government, part from companies which ship oil.
I
The bottom line is to be ready to respond to accidents, and not to ignore them. The Columbia, like the waters around Vancouver leading to the Fraser River, are prime habitant for migrating anadromous fish. A spill can have a devastating effect on the harvest of salmon, both at the time of the spill, and years into the future. And that can wreak havoc on a fruitful and economically valuable resource near my town. Similar to what happened in Prince William Sound, but on a much smaller scale.

To fail to prepare adequately for accidents such as the spill near Vancouver is irresponsible for a culture dependent on oil. Just as it would be irresponsible to fail to carry a first aid kit when you go paddling.
As near as I can gather from the news ... the response was as fast and as competent as might be expected. Yet there is a lot of discussion that the response was not fast enough ... however there also is not much discussion on how the response might have been better.

One thing is clear: if this incident is anything to go by the 'world class response' we are being told will be in place to deal with a major spill ... isn't.

One big problem is the attitude between Federal and Provincial governments. By our constitution everything below the winter tide line is a Federal jurisdiction. Yet we have the Province trying to regulate lots of activity in and on the water. One good example was the pissing contest between the Glen Clark government and the Feds over things like the Salmon Fishery (DFO)and testing of torpedoes by US ships at Nanoose range (DND). I wonder how much that attitude interferes with things getting done.

I don't want to see my taxes go to a Federal Coast Guard and a Provincial Coast Guard.

Maybe we need a really disastrous spill for things to change. I hope not.
 

ken_vandeburgt

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Messages
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WGalbraith said:
After reading through the posts to this topic, I was as horrified as Dan. It was clear from the media reports that the Captain of the ship that caused this spill denied anything to do with it... until the photo evidence was presented. Until that point I thought maybe it was simply an accident. My blood boiled when I discovered that the Captain was lying and doing all he could to limit responsibility and therefore, liability rather than doing something about it.

In today's world it is unavoidable to use products made of plastics manufactured with oil products. That does not mean we should not do our utmost to minimize our effect on our environment. Spills will continue and we need to take responsibility for our actions and be prepared to deal with the consequences.
I like the US oil pollution act 1990.
http://www.epw.senate.gov/opa90.pdf

For instance, oil tankers that have a history of spilling oil are forbidden to load cargo in US Ports such as Valdez Alaska.

Perhaps we need similar legislation in Canada. If the Captain is found to be lying then perhaps he should no longer have a license to sail in Canadian waters.
 
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