what type of roll do you use?

Doug

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May 9, 2006
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another rolling question....

What type of roll do you use? As far as I know, I do a sweep roll. I start tucked forward with my paddle extended forward as well, then I sweep the paddle as my body swings back and snap the hips. As far as I can tell this is pretty much the same thing as a layback roll, although I guess there are maybe some subtle differences.
 

inpayne

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Feb 15, 2008
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Victoria BC
First, I've only ever had to roll a couple times in a sea kayak, and that was playing around surge narrows rapids. All trips, even with odd landings in 2m+ breakers, no call yet to go over.

As WW is more the norm for losing the sky, my first choice is also always a reliable sweep roll. Little stress on the body, less contortion to set up, and a strong and stable but relaxed bracing for what could be a long & slow arc. No sense with party tricks or risk losing the paddle with a one handed grip. Plus once back up I'm immediately prepared to scull with my chosen rolling side or apply a following stroke or brace with my opposite blade

For polo, it's rarely if ever efficient using a sweep or another style to return back-up with two hands on the paddle. In that flat water pitch there's little risk of losing the paddle beyond arms reach after getting back upright, so it ends up being quicker to hand roll with either one hand on the paddle or both hands free.
 

sushiy

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Oct 3, 2006
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Lynnwood, Washington, USA
For the real situation where I capsized in the swirly or surfy water, I (try to ) do my most reliable sweep roll and practicing to do it with looking back from the side instead of layed back on the back deck. The reason is that I will be ready to paddle right away. But if I realized I forgot to bring the chunky tow-rope bag onto my tummy side I have to do C-C, I just can't do layed back sweep roll with that thing on my back, but C-C is harder on my shoulder ( don't want to do it too much).

When I practice and fail my new acquired butterfly roll and foam-pad-on-hand roll, I do basic extended greenland paddle roll ( layed all the way back). I guess it is because my body is in the mode of that motion. If I have the enough breath, I do the foam pad in my hand and do paddle-in-the elbow- roll, believe me, it is not that hard to do. Oh and another time I used the Paddle-in-the-elbow was when I lost my diver mask in the water, I went over and could reach to it and hold it on my hand and did that roll, very handy.

I hope I don't have to use those trick rolls in the real situation, but who knows. And those comes in handy to do practice for other kind of roll and fun to practice :D .
 

Doug_Lloyd

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For every roll I've ever done sea kayaking, I've done 20 sculling-to-vertical self-righting actions. In other words, I think learning to scull over to your ear (on each side, and back upright) is far more useful that the full roll (whatever style you use). Once you learn to scull proficiently each side, then set to work learning deep sculling and sculling back up from the fully inverted position.

Obviously, a quick, bang-on snappy roll is best where imminent danger or peril is a possibility, but the ability to scull a kayak back upright is an underrated skill in many a paddler’s bag of "tricks."

In the older days when my roll wasn't naturally mentally imperative (in other words, my technique was good and muscle memory was working well but psychologically I'd give up too quickly) I used to do and extended Pawlata Roll if my sweep (normal hand position) failed the first time.

I try not to label my sculling and rolling as good side and off side. Please dispense with that language. You should have a port-side and a starboard-side roll (and scull). If one is stronger than the other, it's obvious what you need to do, so just do it. If any area or side is week, then please don't venture off into questionable conditions solo.

Also, if you (not you specifically Doug) are not a good self-starter or tend to have difficulties picking things up, then there's no shame in hooking up with a good instructor. There are lots in Victoria and other locations too. If your instructor isn't gelling it all together for you and is hesitant differentiating your specific roadblocks, tell them so and ask for your money back if you don’t get satisfaction. Most instructors do an excellent job. The odd one should stick to just paddling.

For those on a budget, I'm sure there's reasonably good club-setting instruction out there.

Paddlers unwilling (which is a perfectly fine option) to learn to roll reliably or scull to upright can still paddle safely and tackle harder trips but may need to tend toward the extreme prudence end of the scale as to what level of risk they want to expose themselves to for given sea state values and moving water qualities. If you do value and rely on device-oriented rescues, then please practice them in controlled but rough conditions. Make sure to do this right through to a complete pump-out and skirt reattached situation. Often by then, paddlers are seriously thinking about the alternative capsize recovery method - namely the roll.

This is all my opinion of course.

And in addition to sculling being something I think should be more prominently encouraged in the paddling community, work on a good, reliable roll before you go off trying different variations. Different kayaks might also require different rolls, as can different situations. I've also busted paddles in-situ, while attempting to roll up, so learn to roll with half a paddle too.

And have fun with the whole shebang.

Doug L
 

mikec

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Aug 3, 2006
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Sept-Îles, QC
what he said.

it's interesting to note that the first thing kids in Greenland learn how to do in a kayak is sculling for support.

not rolling

not strokes

sculling
 

inpayne

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Feb 15, 2008
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Victoria BC
Doug_Lloyd said:
For every roll I've ever done sea kayaking, I've done 20 sculling-to-vertical self-righting actions. In other words, I think learning to scull over to your ear (on each side, and back upright)...
HAHA! Funny you emphasised sculling right then, doug! At that time this afternoon I had andreas doing exactly that for at least a solid hour at Beaver Lake. After it was getting ingrained, he was relaxed going fully over, and -- with minimal effort -- 3 times he got himself fully back up and ready for more!
 

Doug_Lloyd

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andreas said:
I'm sore....

:lol:
More like awesome, dude (as my teen daughter would say). Way to go. Good skills sets combined with good judgement and knowledge really do a good kayaker make.

Sounds like the instruction was informal nevertheless very good. Other than sore, I do hope you had fun.

I was souping up the kid's pool with a salt generator and an oversized pump this afternoon, otherwise I was going to come down and see what you were up to. I'll be sculling in the pool tomorrow in my Necky Jive...

Doug L
 

andreas

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I had a great time. Robin is a good teacher! He gave me a lot of good pointers and was really really patient :D

We first started of with doing (well, more like trying..) some handrolls.
After that he gave me a shovel sized paddle and to my surprise I popped up like it was nothing :lol: I did this a couple more times and of course missed about 20-30 attempts .... Got a bit frustrated because every time I was concentrating on my hip flick I forgot about the blade angle and wise versa ....
After my "dry" suit and whitewater boat reached the half full mark, we had a quick pit stop and moved on to the sculling part. I learned a few new tricks and of course by pushing the limit a couple of times went all the way inverted again :lol: It was great to know that Robins arm was close by to get me out.

Staying close to shore allowed me to right my self by pushing off the ground using my paddle (thank goodness my paddle didn't cost $$$$$$)

Now, I have to go and practice practice practice.

Thanks Robin! It was great!
 

Ken B

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Mar 27, 2008
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Campbell River, B.C.
mikec said:
what he said.

it's interesting to note that the first thing kids in Greenland learn how to do in a kayak is sculling for support.

not rolling

not strokes

sculling
This is exactly how I got taught.
I was made to practice side-sculling for support on both sides (with boat on it's side and my head and back in the the water)...they made me do this for an hour while being spotted.
Then it was a matter of applying that to a slow controlled side-sculling roll.
-turn upside down (stay calm)
-twist/lean to the side your coming up on (staying calm)
-allow pfd to float you part way to the surface (still staying calm)
-then slowly side-scull to the surface (STILL remaining calm)
-slide upper body over the back of the boat.


It was easy to then learn the sweep roll.
 

thief

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Jan 11, 2007
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The North Shore of Massa-who-setts
i have a modified sweep roll....cross between a sweep (i was taught) and a c-c roll (not taught).....
it is a quick roll...very successful in almost all conditions....
you learn what gets you back up......simple as that....i help teaching rolling during the winter indoors and it is amazing to see what gets me back upright and what gets other people back upright....all different amounts of bracing and movements....

for me it is all about what works for you...UNLESS you are doing that competing thing re. rolling (eh not my style)
rob
 

mikec

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forgot to actually answer the question, i use a modified sweep roll. started with a c2c, but have evolved to include more of a sweep over time through experience in condtions.

i have come to the conclusion that paddle sports is all about swimming repeatedly, it is just the lull in between swims that varies in duration! if you aren't capsizing then you aren't pushing your limits (not a shot at anyone, just an observation from personal experience)
 

sushiy

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Lynnwood, Washington, USA
mikec said:
i have come to the conclusion that paddle sports is all about swimming repeatedly, it is just the lull in between swims that varies in duration! if you aren't capsizing then you aren't pushing your limits (not a shot at anyone, just an observation from personal experience)
Thanks for saying that!!
I don't know if my good roll is a bombproof if I stay on the water which keeps me up right??

BTW, why do they recommend to have solid roll to go another kind of roll??
I found myself that I can see what I need to work on when I tried other kind of roll.
For instance, I have fairly good sweep roll, but when I learned C-C, I noticed I did not have good hip flip, when I learned butterfly and balance brace, I noticed my knee hang was weak, when I learned " not all the way back on the deck sweep roll", I was told I was depending on laying back too much instead of starting the hip rotation early.

Never ending learning.
 

windowshade

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Dec 7, 2007
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St. John's, Newfoundland
The roll that works is the best roll. Instruction is important. Then drill. My rule is just before I land I do two rolls on each side. Once set up. Once no set up.

The screw roll is the easiest. The C to C is the fastest. Doing a sculling brace is good practice, especially when you can slow down the paddle motion.

Greenland rolling is seen as distinct from other rolling. This is a mistake. My screw roll is far more solid because I studied Greenland rolling.

I focused on the basic Greenland roll, where you sweep quite long, come up very low on the back deck, then sit up. There's very little hip flick.
 

lance_randy

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May 17, 2006
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Victoria
I`m with doug_loyd on the sculling. Especially when one tends to float to one side or the other, rather than hanging straight upside down.

If I capsize with two hands on the paddle, then I`ll probably do a standard greenland roll. If I go down one handed, I`ll butterfly roll.

However, if I think there might be people watching, I`ll try to do something a little more dramatic and showy, like an armpit roll, behind the neck roll, vertical sculling roll, or reverse sweep roll.

You cant go wrong with a nice, slow graceful butterfly roll imo. It looks really cool, and it`s easy. Pretty much impossible to mess up, once you have the feel of it.
 

Doug_Lloyd

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lance_randy said:
I`m with doug_loyd on the sculling. Especially when one tends to float to one side or the other, rather than hanging straight upside down.

If I capsize with two hands on the paddle, then I`ll probably do a standard greenland roll. If I go down one handed, I`ll butterfly roll.

However, if I think there might be people watching, I`ll try to do something a little more dramatic and showy, like an armpit roll, behind the neck roll, vertical sculling roll, or reverse sweep roll.

You can't go wrong with a nice, slow graceful butterfly roll imo. It looks really cool, and it`s easy. Pretty much impossible to mess up, once you have the feel of it.
What's the Butterfly roll again? Is that the one where you hold a butterfly gracefully pinching one wing in one hand, transfer it to another hand while inverted and your hands are above water, then you roll up and the butterfly goes free? Didn't this used to be done with a cigarette? I guess ciggies are not politically correct anymore. :lol:

As far as rolling and capsizing: mike made a good point about paddlers not really paddling unless they are rolling once and awhile. He means pushing the limits and unintentional flips I'm sure. That's where I love the scull. Keep me from fully inverting and subsequently feeling guilty of transgressing the Hutchinson dogma that to roll is a sign of success but to need to roll is a sign of failure. But then should I care about what other paddlers say, regardless of their stature? And what about head dinking anyway?

Doug L
 

lance_randy

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What's the Butterfly roll again? Is that the one where you hold a butterfly gracefully pinching one wing in one hand, transfer it to another hand while inverted and your hands are above water, then you roll up and the butterfly goes free? Didn't this used to be done with a cigarette? I guess ciggies are not politically correct anymore.
The butterfly roll is where you cross your arms in front of your chest, with the middle of the paddle in one hand, then you slowly open your arms, while doing the layback roll motion. The hand with nothing in it, sticks out of the water, and is like a counterbalance.

I can't do the lit smoke roll yet. I tried it once, and then I realized that I would have to let go of my paddle, to switch hands. I didn't have a spare on my foredeck, and I'm not 100 percent confident in my hand roll. I was afraid the paddle would float away, and I'd have to bail out, so I just ruined my smoke instead. Which really sucked actually, because smokes are over ten bucks a pack now :evil:
 

Doug_Lloyd

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lance_randy said:
What's the Butterfly roll again? Is that the one where you hold a butterfly gracefully pinching one wing in one hand, transfer it to another hand while inverted and your hands are above water, then you roll up and the butterfly goes free? Didn't this used to be done with a cigarette? I guess ciggies are not politically correct anymore.
The butterfly roll is where you cross your arms in front of your chest, with the middle of the paddle in one hand, then you slowly open your arms, while doing the layback roll motion. The hand with nothing in it, sticks out of the water, and is like a counterbalance.

I can't do the lit smoke roll yet. I tried it once, and then I realized that I would have to let go of my paddle, to switch hands. I didn't have a spare on my foredeck, and I'm not 100 percent confident in my hand roll. I was afraid the paddle would float away, and I'd have to bail out, so I just ruined my smoke instead. Which really sucked actually, because smokes are over ten bucks a pack now :evil:
So, are you saying you aren't a smoking hot roller? :D :lol:

I intend to try more of these rolls once I get a Greenland stick. Duane, off Paddlewise has some great builds:

http://www.rollordrown.com/kayak/gstick.html

Doug L
 
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