Another Pygmy Murrelet Build

[Roy222]

I see (based on the photos) that the deck panels are not aligned front to rear. I would remove the cockpit cut out parts and align the deck panels. Once aligned, custom fit the cut out panels.
If the deck panels are aligned at the far end then maybe the joint between the two panels needs more bow.
First be happy with the overall shape/form of the hull and then fit he cut away panels. Maybe wait to fit them to after you test wire the deck to the hull. Don't let the tail wag the dog.


Roy

 

[drpaddle]

Thanks to all for your generous advice and good ideas.

I am preparing for a Viking funeral. No, not really.

I have made some progress ... mostly sideways. At least I have the pieces in the general configuration they're supposed to be in. Seams are far from perfect and I have not decided between taking the whole thing apart again and beveling the side seams (both on the recess part and on the outer deck panel where they meet), or just living with less purty, thickened-epoxy seams. I have learned much patience in my short boat-building career but I'm not sure I have learned enough!

A few of you pointed out loose panels... I must apologize, I took those pix without lining everything up even as well as I could. The Pygmy instructions say to leave all the deck panel seams LOOSE while installing the recess plate. And we can see how well that has worked! So I tightened most of them up and it did help.

The good (well, slightly improved), the bad, the ugly below. I did save all my broken pieces and will be doing some patch work before the fiberglass goes on, that's a certainty.

 

[Tootsall]

Looking better but: the crescent tips now appear to be above the cockpit surround. If you leave it that way, when you eventually start sanding and smoothing (after glassing the seams and removing the ties), you'll find you are in danger of cutting through the top ply on the crescent. Be careful not to bevel too much or you won't have enough "meat" for friction to hold the pieces where you want them even with the ties tightened up. It's a finicky thing to work out but worth it.

 

[drpaddle]

... and finally ... the Pygmy folk have clarified the beveling requirements. As others have suggested here, they go a bit beyond what's in the instruction manual -- a minimum 45 degree bevel all the way through the plate, on three sides (back and both sides). On the sides, where the plate meets the shear deck panel, the bevel has to go even a bit beyond 45 degrees to get a smooth fit.

The Pygmy folks also very kindly offered to send me a replacement recess plate so I can start fresh and not have to repair those corners. I took them up on it, but while I'm waiting I went ahead and did the extreme beveling. The result isn't perfect, but it's much, much better and I think it will work.

I might check further into the manual to see what little tasks I can accomplish while I'm waiting for the replacement part. Or I could attack that very long honey-do list...

Thanks again to all of your for your help and encouragement. Onward.

 

[drpaddle]

And now, glassing the hull interior

Work on the boat continues. Against all odds I've got the deck put together and glassed, and now I'm preparing to glass the inside of the hull. I've filled seams and holes, and I'm doing some fillets at the stems, and will be getting everything smooth tomorrow night instead of taking my wife out on the town. Oh, that wasn't going to happen anyway - we're homebodies, mostly.

In only a day or two I will be glassing the inside of the hull, and I find myself wondering how the fabric can possibly fit well into the stems. Seriously. Is that really gonna work? Or do I need to do some cutting somewhere?

Someday I'll be good at this. Possibly.

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

Re: And now, glassing the hull interior

In only a day or two I will be glassing the inside of the hull, and I find myself wondering how the fabric can possibly fit well into the stems. Seriously. Is that really gonna work? Or do I need to do some cutting somewhere?

You definitely need to do some cutting to get the fabric to fit in the stems. Fit the fabric dry, mark and cut each side, leaving enough for overlap.

One strategy is to glass inside the stems separately. Then you have an easier place to work on the overlap when you glass the rest of the hull interior- a nice straight overlap/join from sheer to sheer athwartships.

There was a recent thread at http://www.kayakforum.com on a similar topic- glassing a canoe stem.
You can get some ideas there:
http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Build ... anoe-stem/

Glad to hear you are making progress!

 

[Dan_Millsip]

Instead of trying to get one large piece of fiberglass to fit, you'll likely find it easier to cut as John states and then use an additional piece of fiberglass cut on the bias to run along the keel and up the stem.

Here's an explanation with some photos:

http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/buildin ... 17&pos=128

A method that makes easy work of putting the smaller piece in the stern (or bow) is to lay the piece of cloth on a piece of cardboard, wet it out with epoxy, and then put it in place.

 

[drpaddle]

Yes! I will cut pieces on a bias, from my left-over pile, and do the stems first. Thanks you guys!

 

[drpaddle]

That worked well! The inside of the hull is glassed. Thanks to y'all for the sage advice.

It was challenging (for me) to get the glass happily wetted out. The fabric wanted to move around a lot, of course, and using the roller to apply the epoxy just seemed to make it even more difficult. I ended up using a brush mostly.

Next up: getting ready to glue the deck to the hull - but first I have plenty of clean-up to do at the shear edges of both pieces (epoxy globs).

We have planned a little trip to the Gulf Islands in BC this summer, to celebrate various milestones. It's looking hopeful that the new boat will be ready to take a long and I won't have to lug my heavy poly boat up there. More as it happens.

 

[Astoriadave]

Drp,

That's the last tricky thing to do. All downhill from here. Take your time mating hull to deck, though.

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

Next up: getting ready to glue the deck to the hull -

Pretty exciting, huh? :clap:

Make sure you take a few minutes to think through future deck fittings, hatches, etc. Will you need reinforcement at certain spots? Maroske fittings for deck lines?

It's a LOT easier to work on the underside of the deck before it is joined to the hull. :big_thumb

Even though the kit manufacturers show most of their boats without deck lines, some folks (including most instructors) think that they are essential.
Adding wood blocks to the inside ends of the hull (&deck) gives a good solid anchor spot for U-bolts or through-holes for end toggles/tie-downs. It is also cheaper than filling up the ends with epoxy!

 

[drpaddle]

I haven't posted in a while and after all the solid advice you've provided I thought I'd post an update. And so here is how things are going:

-- I got that pesky deck recess plate manhandled into place, and it doesn't look awful. It may not win any awards.
-- The deck is glued to the hull. It looks okay too. I have the whole thing glassed and, after sanding, it will look okay too.
-- There seems to be a lot of 'looking okay' going around. This will just have to do.
-- I cut the hatches over the last couple of days. The Pygmy manual suggested using a jigsaw blade gripped in Vicegrips, or a jigsaw. The manual method is supposed to be more precise. I tried both methods on a piece of scrap and found that, with my particular manual dexterity deficits, the jigsaw at a slow speed gave me a smoother cut. So that's what I did, and it, uh, looks okay.
-- Today I tipped the boat up on one side and put fillets and wetted-out glass tape on the inside of a shear seam. Other side tomorrow (or next day... danged clients, and wife, keep wanting me to do actual paid work). I also laminated the underside of the hatches with fiberglass, and coated the edges of various things with epoxy, which isn't suggested anywhere in the manual but seems prudent.

So the weeks ahead, if I don't keep going outside to enjoy the wonderful spring weather, should see me through the final parts of the build. I still hafta get the cockpit coaming on, but it's ready for gluing. And various deck-related things like hatch spacers/lips, and I even have a day hatch kit that I'm thinking of installing behind the cockpit. But that will force me to re-design the deck bungie layout. Which brings me to...

Which brings me to a question. There's always a question, right? It's about varnish... when to varnish. So, there are deck bungies and perimeter deck lines and hatch tie-down straps. And they are to be installed ... before or after varnish? Seems to me like trying to varnish after they're installed would be challenging, messy, and even more annoying than varnishing usually is. So... I do the varnish first, right? (When I say 'I' do the varnishing, I really mean 'we' because my lovely wife Susan is really good at tipping-out).

That is all,
Doug in Gig Harbor

 

[Astoriadave]

Doug,

You have made a lot of progress. Sounds good.

Re when to varnish: before permanent installation of hardware. Best is to temporarily drill holes for and mount hardware, to make sure everything is where you want it. Then pull it off and varnish. Thisallows varnish to be absorbed into the inner plies exposed by drilling. Some folks drill slightly oversize, saturate the holes with epoxy, redrill correct size, then varnish everything. I think that is overkill, but it does ensure no water gets under the resin.

BTW, many have used the two part LPU from System Three for a more durable finish than varnish, but there are pluses and minuses for each choice. If you have someone who loves to varnish, she will not like applying the LPU. Demands a different approach. For a large project like the outer surface of a kayak, my choice is the LPU, even though the two Pygmies I built were both varnished. There is an extensive and detailed description of how the LPU worked out for others in the early threads on building.

 

[JohnAbercrombie]

Re when to varnish: before permanent installation of hardware. Best is to temporarily drill holes for and mount hardware, to make sure everything is where you want it. Then pull it off and varnish. This allows varnish to be absorbed into the inner plies exposed by drilling.

+1
:big_thumb

 

[Astoriadave]

Astoria Dave wrote:  If you have someone who loves to varnish, she will not like applying the LPU. Demands a different approach. 

Doug, I was short for time earlier. Thought I should expand on the above a bit. The 2 part LPU from S3 is water based. That means it has only one vehicle (aka thinner) in it: water. That means when the paint dries, it goes quickly from the fluid, mobile state in which it can be spread around and tippedoff, to a thicker, more turgid state, in which more brushing only makes for more brush marks. I have fought that, times when I was pushing the paint, especially when the humidity in my workspace was far too low. Moisture in the workspace air slows the loss of water from the LPU, extending the time the LPU is fluid and mobile enough to tip out properly. In a nutshell, the above is why 2 part water basee LPU demands a different approach than traditional varnish formulations.

Varnish is an oil based formulation containing two (or more) substances as vehicles, one much morevolatile than the other. Slapping on a brushful of varnish is easier for most people because of that. The more volatile vehicle evaporates first, reducing runs and thickening th varnish somewhat. But the second one takes longer to evaporate, so the varnished surface can be worked a bit with a brush to work out brush marks and marry an old wet edge with a new patch of varnish. The second vehicle also helps it to level better, producing a smoother surface as that vehicle leaves. In addition, it extends the open time for applying a second coat without sanding to get good bonding. My spouse loves to paint things using the adage that more brush strokes make for a better surface ... so that she sticks to oil based paints, which allow her to get away with working the paint extensively. With a thin, water based formulation like S3's two part LPU, she can not do that. The best approch with it is to roll on a section, and get in there and tip it out with a nearly dry foam brush, ONCE, and move on to the next section. Very frustrating for those who enjoy the Zen of brushing.

Once you get the hang of it, working with 2 part LPU is easy and quick. I used it exclusively on a 20 ft power boat, described here in an earlier thread. Applying it was straightforward and produced a very hard, tough coating which is enormously better than varnish for in the water use. Even the cockpit sole was painted with the stuff. I highly recommend it for kayak hulls, also, for its superior durability. But, no Zen, baby!

 

[drpaddle]

Thanks Dave & John.

I have been reading about LPU -- the idea of getting multiple coats on in one day is appealing, but as an amateur I'm a little nervous about trying it. I think I'm going to go with varnish but I'm still noodling on it.

Later, tonight: fillet & tape the inside starboard shear seam. And think about LPU and varnish.

Thanks again,
Doug

 

[drpaddle]

Varnishing in my future... but how soon?

I am seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. All construction finished, holes drilled and filled, boat sanded (and sanded, and sanded).

There were a few imperfections in the fiberglassing, of course, especially just below the shear seam, where, try as I might, a few long skinny bubble/blisters resulted. I had decided to live with their imperfection as I thought it wouldn't weaken the structure appreciably... but the sanding process turned these unobtrusive blemishes into snowball-white dotted lines and stripes. Not good.

I ended up cutting the raised glass out with a utility knife, sanding and wiping and drying and then blowing out any residue with compressed air. Then patched with slightly thickened epoxy -- the blisters were so narrow that adding back any bits of glass would have been, IMO, pointless.

I completed that process yesterday. Today I scraped off excess epoxy, and I'll sand everything smooth again tomorrow (I think the epoxy can use another day before sanding, just to make sure it's sufficiently cured). I will re-drill all the rigging holes today, and then begin the 87th garage cleanup since I started this project, working toward a less dusty environment for varnishing.

I have no illusions about a furniture-like finish on this boat -- it's really a large collection of flaws connected by small, good-looking bits. It will look fine from 12-feet, and I will have fun paddling it, and those are the main things for me on this build. So I'm not going to get too carried away with creating a cleanroom atmosphere for varnishing. Still, it will be good to get the dust off of everything in the garage.

Which brings me to, at last, my question. How long do I have to wait before I can wash and varnish the boat? I'd really like to start varnishing ASAP, but I don't want the little epoxy bits I just completed (for the blister fixes) to cause a problem, if they might, because they're only a couple of days old instead of weeks/months.

Wanting to be finished... so I can start wondering what to build next... :|

 

[Astoriadave]

Wait time depends on the temp the boat is at and the varnish. You wont hurt the epoxy by exposing it to the sun unless you let it sit out for many days ... a month or more. I once used a boat, finish sanded, for six months of weekly day trips and overnighters, before applying varnish, and the epoxy showed no breakdown. Just needed a little wet sanding with 220 grit, a good scrubbing and a day to dry.

If you decide to push it, on a small repair, using Captains I got good adhesion and cure after a week or less, boat at about 60F. The bugaboo is that any residual amine blush or unreacted amines in the sanded resin might inhibit drying of the varnish, depending on which varnish you use. I pushed on that repair because if the varnish did not cure, removing it and redoing the coating would have been an easy, quick job.

 

[drpaddle]

Thanks, Dave. I finally found a guideline on the System Three site... it says 2-weeks minimum before finishing.

So I went ahead and installed deck rigging / perimeter lines / hatch straps and seat, popped a tractor seat into the cockpit (hip braces later as needed), and hung up the garage hoist. And I got started on rough-shaping some minicell knee/thigh braces. I will paddle the boat a few times and do touch-up sanding and washing and varnishing... oh... sometime soon.

Down to the Gig Harbor waterfront for a test-paddle any day now.

 

[drpaddle]

It floats.

It tracks generally straight. It's tippier than I remember but that will pass. Needs thin padding where knees touch hull (to protect skin and/or drysuit/wetsuit). Overfilled the thermarest pad and got sleepy legs - easy to adjust. Haven't tried tractor seat yet -- but it will raise the center of gravity slightly so I'll wait until I get used to the tippiness.

Our cairn terrier was quite alarmed with me floating beside the dock. He's NOT a water dog, and I believe was concerned for my safety -- well -- the safety of his kibble supplier. My better half walked him back up the hill to our home, and reports that he kept looking back.

Varnishing starts this weekend, I think.